0: Introduction

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Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) is something that seems to exist. Despite MGTOW’s presence, it seems to have no underlying theory. If I were to ask the average MGTOW dude about the philosophical chassis of MGTOW, I may get an answer. For example:

  1. A guy in the U.S. may quote John Locke and James Madison, and talk about the need to minimalize the state’s intrusion in the lives of men.
  2. A guy in Europe or China may quote E. Belfort Bax, Karl Marx, and G.W.F. Hegel, and talk about the inherent subjugation of men at this stage of our historical development.

These are both high-quality answers, and when I’ve heard them (and I’ve heard them both) I’m impressed by the speaker’s knowledge of the history of human thought, and his willingness to abstract away his own personal issues to talk about general trends. The problem is that while they both seem valid, they’re mutually exclusive and contradictory, and thus neither seems adequate to explain the motives of today’s MGTOW dudes.

Over the course of the next few weeks, I’m going to be looking at general trends prior to modern philosophers (like Hegel and Locke), which may approach a philosophical justification for MGTOW. I invite all of you to join me.

Author: Boxer

Sinister All-Male Dancer. Secret King of all Gamma Males. Member of Frankfurt School. Your Fave Contrarian!

30 thoughts on “0: Introduction”

  1. I mentioned on my blog, the variations of MGTOW are as the day is long. Some men date. Some men don’t. Some are of faith. Some are not. Some were married. Many never were. Some are bio-dads but single. Most are childless.

    MGTOW for most men, was a forced hand. They indeed wanted to be married, or fathers. Be it bad timing, bad luck….circumstance, physical or mental challenges……perhaps they were a player and then they wanted to settle down….and well, time caught up with them and now they are single. There are the militant ones, and those who just hate women……..many are players who cover under MGTOW after a breakup for a bit, lick their wounds kind of thing. Many just are “done” there isn’t any overt anger or hatred to women…….they are probably the best example of MGTOW. They are busy living their lives now instead of on a chat forum “discussing women” all day.

    There is a large segment of MGTOW that no matter what they did, became, or will do will “never” be attractive to women. These men do have a penance in life.

    I suppose I fall in the MGTOW field, but it really wasn’t a choice for the most part.

    I have never heard about Locke or Madison discussed….and as for Mr. Marx, most MGTOW’s that I have met and spoke with over the decades have been pretty much libertarian or conservative in their political mind.

    I claim no “cornering the market” on MGTOW. It’s a family of ideas, practices and attitudes. It cannot be chained to a theory or thought. Everyone who has trained to harness it has been ignored, or pushed aside by MGTOW itself……Paul Elam tried. MGTOW John tried……..there are some bigger names in MGTOW….but they know better by not trying to declare themselves “king MGTOW” because MGTOW in itself is self-correcting and cannot or will not allow it by its nature of its swath of of men under its umbrella.

  2. It’s Kool-Aid. Many MGTOWs like the brother pictured above have a problem. They assume women should want to date them just because they are a man…..er…..okay, I can see that point of view if you had something to offer with an Ego the size of god. Yet they believe a supermodel is within and should be within their reach. They have been taught by a mish-mash of weak christian theology, PUA, Game, blogs on how to date women……..and their social skills are still stunyed in jr. high. It’s not that they are bad, or wicked….it’s just they have poor social IQ. This can be helped through some love, trust and reaching out.

    Men don’t do that today. They belittle, shame, and just tell them to keep trying and making them look like a fool. Men in the christian and rollo-sphere get extreme joy and pleasure in watching these men makes fools of themselves.

    It’s like the plain, mousey, elenor-roosevelt church girl who has zero personality but somehow is convinced the hottest alpha guy in the church *should* be dating her because she is a christian and she believes she is just as good looking as the wonder girl at church who smiles, is very attractive, and actually looks people in the eye, smiles at them………and she doesn’t get why Brad and Chad don’t want to date her. Being christian isn’t a enough. Even though the church and pastors, and women’s groups will tell her different.

    The brother above was very sheltered, was teased incessantly in school…..and MGTOW “justifies” his behavior for zero success with women with him looking like he does in the above picture. He’s a man going his own way! Don’t you forget it! He probably grew up in a home with no dad, or a weekend one….and guys like this dude usually have an over-achieving older or younger brother.

    Don’t pity him……or make fun of him……he needs solid mentorship that the church will not do nor the man-o-sphere.

  3. My take on the average MGTOW:

    Average intelligence overall. Some higher than average, some lower…..MGTOW to its credit doesn’t make it a club. On the lower spectrum of the looks scale (in the eyes of fellow men and women).

    The two pillars that I have noticed in MGTOW and proto MGTOW since the mid 1990’s that has not really ever changed:
    A MGTOW cannot be married. A MGTOW really should not be co-habitating. I have yet to see a guy livin’ with his girlfriend in any MGTOW chat, dischord or blog. This makes married men angry. They’re married! Marriage is a symbol of respect, and fellow men should respect or look up to a married man! Married men are actually MGTOW too!

    There have been a few men that have indeed found a girl, and decided to get married. They understand that at that point it IS time to leave. It’s single man’s space and family of beliefs and ideas.

    The real truth behind why many married men hate MGTOW………many married men are the reason why MGTOW is around and married men just don’t like being shut out of a space. They really are not missing anything in here if truth be told…..and if they were allowed, it would turn into a place of whimsical-snappy-sarcastic digs at the “single men” who are not married like him to an amazing wife! (think Scott over in Dal’s forum) “I’m all about helping men” and then pretty much slaps any man with that “texan” thing that doesn’t agree with him, or with a man who isn’t like him.

    Married men have plenty of spaces to talk about how great they are. Church is just one of these places.

    MGTOW is growing not just because of hypergamy but partly because of the men themselves. MGTOW IS becoming a place that justifies you dressing up as a superhero on Halloween and trick or treating as a grown man. Since MGTOW itself lets you, the man navigate your life…….there really ISN’T a reason to improve yourself on anything. You’re just going your own way! That IS harmful. People thinking Star Trek is real…….Star Wars superfans…….comic book collecting, which is not childish in itself……but taking it to a level that IS childish.

    Improvement doesn’t mean learning game. It should mean that a man should learn a skill, or trade…..pull his own weight. Getting in the best shape that you can by your means………challenging yourself in career, or just learning something for the sake of learning. Yes, there are men there doing this…..but too many are not.

    Two decades ago there was a lot more for men navigating a divorce or bad break up…but fewer and fewer men are not ever getting married…or even dating…..so it kind of is becoming a place that justifies all your failures under an umbrella that “lets you go your own way”

    The current fight inside MGTOW seems to be the Roosh / Roissy crowd moving in, and cleaiming MGTOW and then turning it into the new place for this crowd to congregate. The Incel crowd, the men like myself and others who just want a space that doesn’t deal with this…………….some downright heated and brutal discussions have happened. The Roosh / Roissy crowd speaks to MGTOWS like they are running a boot camp and use that neg thing and cocky funny thing on their fellow men. It’s not cool. You’re an amazing ladies man? Then go f*ck the ladies, quit coming here and telling this crowd AGAIN “looks don’t matter, read this book, go to this webpage, you just need confidence”

    The black pill was birthed INSIDE the MGTOW scene. There is a deep PUA / Game hate inside the MGTOW scene. EVen by men who date or hook up here and there. There should be a hate of this. Game, PUA and pick-up in a round about way UPPED the ante with women, and closed out even more men from dating.

    This has rambled a bit. There are some really cool men who are MGTOW……..some are okay……many who were shut out of dating, shut out of the cool kids crowd by their fellow men as boys / teenagers and young adults kind of have this space……..and they really don’t want anything except to be left alone with a community that they now finally have.

    It’s changed a lot in the twenty plus years I have drifted in and out. I mean, I remember chatting with Barbarosa on a Yahoo chat forum in 1999? 2000? Since it is such a large umbrella now…….a MGTOW can find the subgroup he wants to hang with easily……….it helped, but its not the solution…….but it IS a force that cannot be harnessed, or heeled as much as some thing they can. It’s not a philosophy. It’s a family of ideas and situations, and a common denominator…..and that is why it is such a thorn of fristration to feminists, red pilled men, married men…………..and this is where it has indeed worked.

  4. Dear Jason:

    Thanks for such great replies. Can’t disagree with most of what you wrote, and I appreciate your insights.

    A MGTOW cannot be married. A MGTOW really should not be co-habitating. I have yet to see a guy livin’ with his girlfriend in any MGTOW chat, dischord or blog. This makes married men angry. They’re married! Marriage is a symbol of respect, and fellow men should respect or look up to a married man! Married men are actually MGTOW too!

    Back in the old days, I knew of two MGTOW bros who were married. One told me (privately) about finding MGTOW stuff after he had been married many years, and how MGTOW saved his marriage – I suppose it was the ultimate ‘dread game’, or some such. The other had just emigrated to Philippine Islands and married some woman. Neither of them suggested other men get married, but both seemed sincere.

    MGTOW is growing not just because of hypergamy but partly because of the men themselves. MGTOW IS becoming a place that justifies you dressing up as a superhero on Halloween and trick or treating as a grown man. Since MGTOW itself lets you, the man navigate your life…….there really ISN’T a reason to improve yourself on anything. You’re just going your own way! That IS harmful. People thinking Star Trek is real…….Star Wars superfans…….comic book collecting, which is not childish in itself……but taking it to a level that IS childish.

    While the set of all goons and the set of all MGTOW has a huge intersect space, I don’t see a correlation. Rather, I think the men given to goony asshattery (dressing up like Captain Kirk) are men who didn’t have a reliable father-figure at home. I see grown men doing that furry fandom shit, and I know they wouldn’t be doing it if their father was worth a damn. I think it’s not coincidental that there are lots of MGTOWers in this set, because MGTOW bros tend not to have had a father also.

    That also goes with the cartoonish aspects of “game,” too. The eyeliner and fuzzy hat is something your mom would have laughed about. If you had a dad at home, he’d have called you a faggot and told you to take that shit off and quit embarrassing yourself. Skank wimminz enjoy seeing men looking like idiots (handicapping?) but one’s brothers think such things are pathetic.

    It’s changed a lot in the twenty plus years I have drifted in and out. I mean, I remember chatting with Barbarosa on a Yahoo chat forum in 1999? 2000? Since it is such a large umbrella now…….a MGTOW can find the subgroup he wants to hang with easily……….it helped, but its not the solution…….but it IS a force that cannot be harnessed, or heeled as much as some thing they can. It’s not a philosophy.

    Yeah, it’s not a mathematics, either.

    It’s a family of ideas and situations, and a common denominator…..and that is why it is such a thorn of fristration to feminists, red pilled men, married men…………..and this is where it has indeed worked.

    Every social movement that exists ought to have some sort of philosophical justification. There are a few competing go-to examples that the brainier MGTOW guys like to lean on (Locke and Marx), but nobody has really constructed a coherent theory of MGTOW from these sources. That will be our job presently. I’m counting on you to help me.

  5. Boxer says: “While the set of all goons and the set of all MGTOW has a huge intersect space, I don’t see a correlation. Rather, I think the men given to goony asshattery (dressing up like Captain Kirk) are men who didn’t have a reliable father-figure at home. I see grown men doing that furry fandom shit, and I know they wouldn’t be doing it if their father was worth a damn. I think it’s not coincidental that there are lots of MGTOWers in this set, because MGTOW bros tend not to have had a father also.”

    True enough. This is why MGTOW is hard to crack, or just using a “blanket” cover them all isn’t correct. The media and the red-pill world LOVES when MGTOW’s behave like the man in the picture of the original post. It paints a wide brush to the red pill side of “see, this is MGTOW….all these men need to do is grow up, be alpha, work out, find jesus, bathe, get a haircut, get a better job, learn some style, learn how to read the secret cues of women, quit acting stupid, lose weight, go right up to women and talk to them”……..the list goes on and yet. The slight of hand “Looks and your appearance don’t matter to women”

    The media loves this, painting men as “sore losers” and “entitled” and causes howls of laughter by women……and “Yup, this is why I am single, look at all the men today!”

    However beneath the surface, even having a dad around today doesn’t stop this buffoonery. The other side of this is men did have a dad around, are educated….have a decent job….okay social skills but *could* be better or learning how to read *social cues* a bit more….not from women….but from the culture at large.

    What do you tell a man who is okay looking. Has a job. Has a degree….and is just shorter than average? He’s 29, has had maybe a pity-date or two…is blocked out of tinder bc of his height. Dating sites are a dud. The women he knows tell him “he’s a great guy” (and he may well indeed be one) but the obvious being short is the hindrance…….and before you say “I know tons of short guys who are dating very hot women……” I will call you out on your BS and say…….”yeah, it happens but not common” and not the norm. The people saying this usually to this crowd are all TALLER than average.

    What of the man who is American as you and I? Born and raised here. He’s ethnically Indian though. A huge strike against him right there. He either has to speak the native language of where his family is from, or be very, very above average in the looks dept to even have a shot with women of his own ethnicity or be that rare exception that can indeed land a “hot” American (white gal). Yes, it happens. Not the norm. Not by a long shot. Again, he has been told by women, by PUA, by Game, by countless books, magazines, podcasts for over a decade that confidence is the only thing he needs to be attractive to women. It’s BS, and he knows it……the lie perpetrated by “game” folks who get their advice from women of “what they want” and muscle it up.

    What of the men who are American but East Asian……like a fifth generation American Japanese or Chinese. The women from the “old” country will have nothing to do with him……..and white women (the racists that they are) won’t date him for the most part unless he is indeed way taller than average, considered *very* good looking on a cultural standard and has a personality that equals a Hollywood star. I know a mechanic in Fresno. Runs a very successful repair shop. Owns two homes. Is 50. Is American-Chinese and is dateless. Single and holds his anger in check by racing cars. He shows any disdain, women and the man-o-sphere will snipe “That’s why you’re single, you’re bitter” and at the same time having his whole life being told “looks don’t matter” is a bigger lie than “I’ll pay you back” and “I wont cum in your mouth”

    It’s more complex than just that pic in the original post my friend.

  6. “What of the men who are American but East Asian……like a fifth generation American Japanese or Chinese. The women from the “old” country will have nothing to do with him……..and white women (the racists that they are) won’t date him for the most part unless he is indeed way taller than average”

    I don’t really have anything to add on the broader MGTOW topic at this point, what with a lack of expertise on the subject matter. However, I do know a little about these claims.

    Dating and marrying close to one’s ethnic group is not racist, it’s the normal, adaptive, safe thing to do, from both a genetic and environmental standpoint. Interracial[1] and intercultural marriages are not the norm because they are more stressful and usually have higher rates of divorce[2]. They also have lower fertility, just one of nature’s natural ways to limit this occurrence. There is nothing nefarious about the choice to marry within one’s own group.[3]

    [1] Where the meaning of ‘race’ is the one used by scientists who study population differences.
    [2] Statistics suggest that a white woman (especially) marrying a non-white man is much more likely to divorce. A few combinations do not seem to notably increase the odds of divorce. See this chart from Wikipedia:

    [3] Similarly, there is nothing morally wrong with interracial or intercultural marriage.

  7. While I agree Derek. Concerning MGTOW…..dating in the West, if one is a ethnic minority is much harder in the Asian group. Many Asian-American women (born and raised in the USA) WANT to date white……and the more traditional ones tend to expect that their husband to be: speaks the language of the old country. Has an excellent job. Has an excellent education. Has way above average looks in his age group, and has it “all together”

    How many 4th generation Italian Americans speak Italian? None…..sure, there is that exception. I was taught Welsh by my late mother…..she was an immigrant…now if I had married, had children, very doubtful my children would have learned Welsh, or if they did it would have been half-heartedly and they may know some words, or some of the trapping of Welsh culture in Britain……

    A lot of younger American-Asian men are MGTOW, again not because they want to be part of the “He-Man-Woman-Haters-Club” but for the fact that their options are about zero for dating. Yes, there are exceptions but not the norm. A forced hand……told for a decade and half “looks don’t matter, just be alpha!” and then finding its a sugar coated lie makes for a painful, and bitter tasting mix.

    I’m not saying all…..and many MGTOW do end up marrying….many albeit later than the norm….but then, the naysayers who hate them will not be happy for them finding someone, they will chirp and sqawk on their forums and ivory towers “Yeah, he married, but she is a fatty, spent up, used up cock-carousel rider who will divorce rape him and she got desperate”

    These men cannot win in MGTOW for the fact that many of their fellow men give them zero options, and when they find one…..well, its still “not good enough…they should have learned game, applied it and married a 18 year old at 30”

    This is part of the reason why many take the man-o-sphere with no seriousness.

  8. As a coda…….would you Derek approve of a marriage of your daughter when she is nineteen to a man who is say…..thirty-two…but he is deeply christian…..works hard, solid provider (not rich). It’s easy to say “yes, if his heart was right” and the usual trappings. Would you speak to the “elders” in your church about a 29 year old man who is “chatting up” ugh…I mean approaching your daughter, using his rock-solid frame and giving her the tingles? Would you want a younger guy?

    It’s easy for the ‘sphere to talk up this playbook about “men that are 7, 9, 10 years older marrying a 18 / 19 year old woman” but if it was their OWN daughter???????? Yeah, suddenly he’s gonna be having the “rules” for datin’ and courtin’ his daughter. Something he called other men for doing the same thing “cucks”

  9. Is there really no better picture than that guy?

    nobody has really constructed a coherent theory of MGTOW from these sources

    For the Christian MGTOW… I offer Joshua’s path in Joshua 24:14-15 (emphasis mine):
    14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

    In my opinion, with which some such as Jason will disagree, being married or not is irrelevant to MGTOW. The point is that the man is the leader of his own family. He chooses what goes on. Patriarchy or bust.
    He also chooses what woman is permitted in, and she’d better accept that he makes the directions if she wants any chance. “But as for me and my house, we will …” He works against any feelings/claims that he should be ashamed for being the undisputed leader in his house, despite in culture in which we live.

    He also refuses to let a religious nut-case (aka pastor / priest) usurp his authority within his own house. His wife and children know that he is the authority, not the guy who makes a living being religious at the local synagogue.

    For a Christian, MGTOW, he specifically uses his authority over his own family to fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Ten men like this will NOT look the same however, since God calls each to a different form of service. E.g., this passage from Romans 12:3-8: 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

    But a few reality checks:
    – because he insists on certain standards from any woman wanting to be his wife, the vast majority of women from North American cultures are disqualified. So he may be unmarried; maybe “very likely” to be unmarried
    – because of our stupid family court laws, the “big, strong, MGTOW leader” may find himself divorced, regardless of how he strives
    – because of the foolish expectations of the average North American woman, he may not even be deemed acceptable to the typical woman he sees, regardless of whether he feels she would qualify for marriage – the “invisible man”
    – he may have great difficulty finding a church that preaches that the husband is the final authority within his house. Good luck finding a religious leader who volunteers that the wife should be asking her husband at home instead of asking the religious leader. 1 Cor 14:35 – If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

    So maybe a MGTOW is the guy trying to run his own life as he sees fit, who has not yet been railroaded by the arrogant people around him, like lawyers, priests, etc.

  10. It’s easy for the ‘sphere to talk up this playbook about “men that are 7, 9, 10 years older marrying a 18 / 19 year old woman” but if it was their OWN daughter???????? Yeah, suddenly he’s gonna be having the “rules” for datin’ and courtin’ his daughter. Something he called other men for doing the same thing “cucks”

    I don’t know that this is really a Christian or manosphere thing. I see it more of a hindbrain reaction. I’m not a parent, and I don’t think Derek’s kids are old enough yet for him to give a serious response, but I think it must be difficult to transition from caretaking mode into letting your children go off to marry/fuck/have kids with other people. I’ve never done any serious reading, but I’d be surprised if this sort of anxiety wasn’t universal to human beings everywhere.

  11. As a coda…….would you Derek approve of a marriage of your daughter when she is nineteen to a man who is say…..thirty-two…but he is deeply christian…..works hard, solid provider (not rich).

    Not necessarily to Derek, but I also would agree with Jason’s challenge. I remember 21 year women ignoring 30 year old men in the church. And even communicating that it was a bit creepy (not the exact words, but definitely the meaning) that he was in the singles group.

  12. Again. The very strong, common, and base pillar in MGTOW is: you are not married, and you are not co-habitating
    JPF……I have been in and on the edges of this “movement” if you can even call it that since the mid 1990’s. Even Christian MGTOW’s (and I have met a few over the years online….agree. A MGTOW, or a man claiming MGTOW cannot be married.

    You married men need to deal with that fact. I can tell you no world changing schemes are being hatched, nor is there hatred of married men……..but please, I actually know this a little bit more than you……….don’t define the terms. You are sounding like a married guy who is an “expert” on being single.

  13. Is there really no better picture than that guy?

    Aside from being sorta humorous, I thought it was illustrative of how the feminist corporate media portrays MGTOW, and simultaneously showed a guy who was willing to dress for a bit of shock value (you can’t tell me he put on that makeup by accident.) For all these reasons, I thought it was a good header.

  14. Boxer, there were plenty of comments from the usual pages speaking about this “being normal” but I am sure, when their daughter comes of age………daddy would not be too pleased with a 29 year old man trying to date his (cough) virginal nineteen year old daughter in church

  15. Is there really no better picture than that guy?

    Probably few. Most MGTOWs (myself included) just don’t meet the scratch for looks….even though they “don’t matter to women” as if

  16. Finally……sadly and regretfully many MGTOWs claim they are “done” with women and proceed then to spend just about all their time telling the forums and the like how much they were “wronged” by them.

    I cannot remember who said it, but it sadly works very well with a large swath of MGTOW today:

    “Too many MGTOWs are like a toothless, dirty street rat….a bum in tattered, clothing with pissed and shitted in underwear walking into the upscale car dealer on the north end of town. You know, Mercedes, Lexus, BMW……..and he walks around the lot and the showroom, cussing at the sales staff, grossing out and CREEPING out the attractive female employees. Talking smack about the cars…how they are pretentious, no good, over priced accessories. He calls them junk and talks about their shoddy workmanship and how overpriced they are. The thing is, this man could not even afford one of these cars…nor even get a “test drive” even if he had a valid license. He could not afford to take care of a vehicle like this. He could not qualify for a loan to own a car like this. He is outclassed on all levels, he can’t afford to be here, shouldn’t be here………and then has the gall to say that he would not want to own a car like this ever because of their elite status and attitude that comes with owning one. That’s a big swath of MGTOW. Has zero chance, won’t get a chance, behaves as if he HAS a chance and then quits and storms out acting like he DESERVES a chance but passed it up to be down with the people.”

    It hurts at times still to read this, even for me…..and I am not some “deep MGTOW brother” here….but yes, this is what a good sized swath of MGTOW acts like today in 2020. He is in no way going to ever date or get a girlfriend by his status, his looks, and his lack of money. He then proclaims that women are this, that and are not worth his time, wastes his and others time telling everyone who dares listen what they “really” are all about, you know how feminism / hypergamy and any other conspiracy theory that fits the moment thrown in as to why he is out…..and then makes a chest thumping scene about how he never needed women, root of all evil………skank, sluts, good for one thing only and then says he’s MGTOW for life.”

    I have argued (mostly to no avail) in MGTOW chats, forums, dischords, GAB……..that “If the real hot guys…..supermodel guys……….the Chads…..you know, real GOOD LOOKING men were going MGTOW, then it would have some clout……and I think women would be paying attention as to why men are “leaving” but since that is not happening, and WON’T happen….MGTOW will serve to help those it needs, but its not going to bring women to the table. They have deemed us all losers anyways.”

  17. “would you Derek approve of a marriage of your daughter when she is nineteen to a man who is say…..thirty-two…but he is deeply christian…..works hard, solid provider (not rich). It’s easy to say “yes””

    I’m afraid I may disappoint you with my response. As Boxer notes, my children are too young to make this a practical question. I can answer anything and it doesn’t matter. That said, it’s not easy to say “yes”, it’s incredibly difficult to say “yes”. Almost certainly my answer would be “no”, no matter how amazing he was. I have numerous and many good reasons for this.

    1) My girls are Asian. If he is an older, non-Asian, that is a red flag.

    2) One of my girls has a major permanent disability. She’ll need someone to care for her when she is older and cannot walk. For this reason she should consider marrying a younger man. I’m also very concerned about an older man taking an interest in a disabled girl.

    3) My girls both come from Chinese provinces that produce women that are short by even Asian standards. One of my daughters will be lucky to exceed 4 feet tall. I shouldn’t have to explain how suspicious it would be for a typical older American man to show interest in ‘underage’ disabled Chinese girl (who will almost certainly look like she is ~15 when she is 20).

    4) Older men are more likely to produce offspring with genetic abnormalities. My girls likely carry genes for rare genetic conditions. They would be better off marrying younger men. Also, the better looking he is, the more likely he is genetically fit, and the less likely they are to produce children with major genetic abnormalities.

    5) There are significant cultural differences between different generations. We know from statistics that the average difference in age between men and women has been ~4 years for about 100 years, despite all the changes to marriage (i.e. hypergamy). A 32-year old man marrying a 19-year old woman is on the borderline of being reasonable. A large age difference increases the odds of divorce.

    6) My girls will likely need good health insurance, due to their physical needs. I can’t predict what the political and economic climate will be in the future, but the higher wealth potential he has, the better a husband he will make. A rich older man might actually be a superior fit if there is a prenuptial agreement that ensures that she will be taken care of after he is gone. Hard working is great, but may not be enough.

    My girls have special challenges, but maybe they fall in love with an older, hardworking, deeply Christian, but not rich man. They could do far, far worse. Ultimately it is my job to ensure that they are taken care of for the rest of their lives, at least insofar as I get them successfully married off and out of the house. But since I don’t have the final say, I’m not sure how much any of this matters anyway. Also, my wife would probably have something to say about this….

  18. “I think it must be difficult to transition from caretaking mode into letting your children go off to marry/fuck/have kids with other people. I’ve never done any serious reading, but I’d be surprised if this sort of anxiety wasn’t universal to human beings everywhere. I’m not a parent, and I don’t think Derek’s kids are old enough yet for him to give a serious response”

    I’m not sure you ever fully leave caretaking mode, especially for the girls. How do you just turn off that protection instinct? I think about the man I was before and after I had my boys. Then I think about the man I was before and after I had my girls. These have changed me so much. Just like how I lack standing to speak on MGTOW issues, if you don’t have girls of your own, I’m not sure you can really understand. Most men have no idea what they’d do until they are a parent of teenage girls, and possibly not even then.

  19. Jason wrote a man claiming MGTOW cannot be married… You are sounding like a married guy who is an “expert” on being single.

    I won’t pretend I can decide for you what MGTOW means to you. And I’m willing to assume you are correct about the general consensus in the community of men who self-identify as MGTOW.

    Consider a man who says he will do what is best for him, and not let some woman manipulate him into a situation that is bad for him.
    And a second (married) man says he will choose to serve the Lord, with all that entails re the commands and principles from the Lord, and will not allow culture to manipulate him into accepting their rules instead of God’s.
    I see a great deal of overlap in these two (straw-)men. Whether the married guy is disqualified from being part of the club or not. And I do have the brains to understand that the single man can correctly point out that the married man does not any longer have the same struggles of a single man.
    I can even see that the committed MGTOW may assume that no married man could be 100% MGTOW and yet marry.

    And yes, I would claim to be a forced-expert on being alone / unmarried. Took two decades to find an acceptable woman who also wanted me. Granted, I may have torpedoed a few chances when I was younger, due to incompetence.
    I can empathize with your unmet desires… similar desires in myself are why I kept making efforts, despite the continuing failures. (No that is not a slam that you have not “tried hard enough”. A great deal is outside of a man’s direct control.)

    Aside from being sorta humorous, I thought it was illustrative of how the feminist corporate media portrays MGTOW

    Sorry Boxer, I should not have made a complaint toward you.
    Better to say that, as a general idea, men should not deliberately paint themselves as incompetents or losers. And especially to not do so and then expect to be taken seriously. This I find discouraging, and kind of insulting to myself.
    Reminds me of Tommy Sotomayor. One of his rants was against how black women portray themselves as idiots or in a poor light. (TS is black; I assume he felt disrespected by association with the aforementioned idiotiotic behaviour.)

  20. Hey, I just found something and thought of Jason. Not that it applies to him, but rather that Jason might think that it applies to me and other married men who talk about MGTOW……..
    Prov 18:2 – A fool takes no pleasure in understanding,
    but only in expressing his opinion.

    Enjoy 🙂

  21. “Prov 18:2 – A fool takes no pleasure in understanding,
    but only in expressing his opinion”

    You posted in the wrong forum. You need to go to Deep Strength / Dalrock / Roosh / Roissy / Rollo
    and post this.

    Again…….you JFP have decided what MGTOW is or isn’t by your own opinion of what you think it is, or should be, or what they need to do to stop being MGTOW. The understanding of MGTOW….which I have a “tad” more than you do and you don’t like that….so you post a bible quote to end the discussion and inferring that I am “a fool who takes no pleasure in understanding but only in express his opinion”

    One of the things that has helped me GROW my career and perform on an exceptional level is that I always assume that a person I am speaking with……a client, a contractor, the janitor, the bicycle courier, the State and County representatives / workers, a homeless person who drifts in and needs to be gently “escorted off the property” and EVEN the police (whom I have a strong disdain and bias against)……I always assume they indeed may know something that I do not. Not just “information” in their field or lack thereof…..but something I just don’t know about.

    I have tried this practice in the man-o-sphere so to speak, and it is hopeless and useless. They are just like feminists. They know everything. I mean everything. When opinions mean understanding, and are accepted as truth because one can quote scripture or knows Greek, or they had lots of sex, got ‘holy’ and superior and know know it all……..even mundane things. They claim men need to get educated, and study…….what they really mean is: men must accpet my stance or you are a fool.

    Debate is useless. At least in MGTOW one can hold a thought and at least be heard. Perhaps why that it has strong appeal, or at least by many men is viewed as a place that will give them a sense of community.

    So you walked two decades alone before you found an decent woman. Very happy for you. That is rare indeed, and I would assume that you both will have a successful marriage. They happen. They exist.

    Most today, will not find such a thing…..and even if they do, they will not be doing it “right” according to the sphere. In MGTOW one can at least expect contradictions in statements…..the men there are not brilliant geniuses. The hypocrites in the sphere will always justify every and any action they do by some verse in the Bible or what ROosh said ten years ago……do as I say, not as I do thing and then shame you for not knowing any better.

    You can hold an opinion of MGTOW and “wish” it as much as possible to fir your narrative…….but yes it is just your opinion and that doesn’t make it correct…despite how much you believe it is.

  22. You posted in the wrong forum.

    JPF is welcome here.

    This ain’t our echo chamber. Carry on 🙂

  23. Better to say that, as a general idea, men should not deliberately paint themselves as incompetents or losers. And especially to not do so and then expect to be taken seriously.

    Guys like “mystery” and “style” proved that the more ridiculous a brother looks, the more likely skanky wimminz are to take him seriously. This guy did that with the mass media (no doubt the feminist Vice reporter was a wimminz, so there’s a bit of redundance.)

    Reminds me of Tommy Sotomayor. One of his rants was against how black women portray themselves as idiots or in a poor light. (TS is black; I assume he felt disrespected by association with the aforementioned idiotiotic behaviour.)

    I’ve loved Tommy Sotomayor for many years. His best stuff is up behind a paywall (I believe his channels were some of the first to disappear, thanks to google and youtube.) He has a self-produced film entitled fatherless America, which I have been meaning to see. If you’re watching him, keep doing so. He mocks all the right people.

  24. entitled fatherless America
    Thanks Boxer. I’ll have a look for that movie.

    Jason: so you post a bible quote to end the discussion and inferring that I am “a fool who takes no pleasure in understanding but only in express his opinion”

    You misunderstood Jason. I wrote that you “might think that it applies to me and other married men who talk about MGTOW”.
    It was not a slam against you. It was a joke against me. Sorry you misunderstood.

  25. “Hey, I just found something and thought of Jason. Not that it applies to him, but rather that Jason might think that it applies to me and other married men who talk about MGTOW……..
    Prov 18:2 – A fool takes no pleasure in understanding,
    but only in expressing his opinion.

    Enjoy 🙂”

    I’m not a fool. Use the cocky-funny thing on your wife. Not me. I understood clearly

  26. I’m not a fool. Use the cocky-funny thing on your wife. Not me. I understood clearly

    I don’t think anyone in this thread is a fool. I’m getting a lot of excellent feedback. Keep it coming.

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