Beyond Nature vs Nurture

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This series portrays a bleak picture of societal decline—attributed to (1) declining general intelligence (from fertility changes and high mutational load), (2) bureaucracy, (3) feminism (e.g. The Pill), and (4) cultural changes (e.g. anti-Christianity, anti-patriarchy, anti-excellence). These factors converged around the 1960s and have since strengthened through joint causation and feedback.[1]

Research suggests that humans—a social species—are losing general intelligence and increasing mutational load. The Mouse Utopia experiment suggests that—in a social species—critical increases in mutational load can doom a population. By utilizing social contagions, a relatively small percentage of mutants are sufficient.[2][3a][4] There are many examples contrary to historical adaptive norms. The effect is notable in homosexual and transgender activism, as well as the refusal to reproduce—seen in both mice and men (e.g. Japan and China).

What, if anything, can be done about these things?

Eugenics

The genetic factors behind societal problems naturally suggest potential eugenic solutions. This leads to obvious objections:

You’re arguing nature over nurture here [..] Evolution in every form teaches survival of the fittest, culling the weak so the strong can succeed. There’s no way to reconcile that with Christian notions of justice and mercy.

Christianity thrived specifically because we’re kind to those who aren’t winners, genetic or otherwise. As Christ put it, “it’s the sick that need a doctor, not the healthy”[5]

These objections can be given simply as follows:

“Claims of races having different intelligence were used to justify colonialism, slavery, racism, social Darwinism, and racial eugenics.”[6]

This is, pardon the pun, the genetic fallacy. Population group IQ differences are real.

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By using fallacious reasoning and denying reality, we risk the very thing we abhor:

“But it is a dangerous mistake to premise the moral equality of human beings on biological similarity because dissimilarity, once revealed, then becomes an argument for moral inequality.”[7]

Eugenics (“good breeding”) and dysgenics (“bad breeding”) are morally neutral descriptive terms.[3b] What matters is how we use the information they represent.[8] Society mandated blank-slatism (environmental ‘eugenics’) is just as dangerous as innatism (‘behavior determinism’). Both multiculturalism and feminism argue for moral inequality, enforcing it with the lethal force of law.

The level to which the ‘social contagions’ are genetic—rather than environmental—is secondary to their effectiveness and growing influence. The social changes are too intertwined with genetic influences to be viewed separately.[4] Therefore, we must consider—without shame—the moral context[9] alongside the genetic (eugenic and dysgenic) and environmental factors. When we do so, we find that there are no acceptable workable solutions to be found in eugenics….

 “The only way, if we follow Galton, to reverse dysgenics would be (at minimum) the monstrous policy of allowing to die, to sterilize, or (most effectively) inflict death upon, about half of the children born in each generation.”[10]

…yet ‘eugenic’ policies are already here and growing: abortion and infanticide (e.g. sex and disability deselection), euthanasia, assisted and coerced suicide, socialized medicine (e.g. rationing), whole population gene sequencing, genetic modifications (e.g. CRISPR), and executions.

Nations will increasingly utilize these as means of population control. The bureaucrats utilizing these policies are not interested in solving the problems raised in this series. Bureaucracy, being inherently evil, will inevitably cause such policies to further damage, not repair, society.

Christianity

There are two groups that still breed: the religious and those with low intelligence.

“Even under modern conditions, traditional patriarchal religions often have above replacement fertility – sometimes very high rates of fertility – so religion can be an antidote to subfertility, but it is one which that is seldom used by the most intelligent.”[10b]

Combined with a cultural restoration of traditional Christian sexual ethics and a rejection of feminism, the religious could peacefully outbreed the competition.[12]

Consider the historical rise of Roman Catholicism during an extended period of relatively low individualism and intelligence. In the presence of low-individualism, you need a strong cultural identity. The Roman Catholic Church served society well in this role for a millennium. Then—with increased individualism and intelligence—the Protestant Reformation (and eventually the Industrial Revolution) came.

You would think that the recent secular decline in individualism and intelligence would make the RCC more attractive again. But it isn’t. Why? Bureaucracy. The RCC, like every other major Western institution, is converged.

Genius and Innovation

By examining the rates of innovation using lists of historical events in science and technology as well as the U.S. patent history, the estimate of peak of innovation was in 1873.[15] We are currently at around 1650-1700 levels of per capita innovation rates. Following the trend line, we’ll have declined to 1400s levels by the start of the next century.[3e] Further, we will hit 95% of the economic limit of technology by 2038 (we are about 90% now).[15]

The financial benefit of new technology is suffering from both diminishing returns and falling innovation rates. If the worldwide demographic crisis hits fully when we nearly max out the ability to harness economic returns from technology, there is going to be a serious economic crisis in a few decades from which we may not recover for a long time. That’s the risk.

If society could learn to value and harness the rare geniuses, it could increase innovations that support societal and economic progress.[10] This should be done in combination with the restoration of Christianity, as most geniuses are religiously motivated and aligned with objective truth.[3c] Again, this would require dismantling the bureaucratic system that makes the formation of geniuses nearly impossible.[11]

Moving Forward

A popular sentiment in the manosphere is that society will—or should—collapse and that a new society will be built by patriarchal men (like them). This view considers it unlikely that (1) society recovers (e.g. Christian patriarchy reasserts dominance), (2) societal problems continue indefinitely, or (3) patriarchal men fail to take over.

If recovery or stagnation do not occur, as society declines[13] and economic momentum wanes over the next century, a collapse of society and mass death—war, starvation, genocide, criminalization and execution, and disease and epidemic—become more likely. Darwinian selection will return and most people will die.[14][3d][3e]

Individual societies have a number of group interaction strategies they can choose from. If we mix all four combinations of cooperation vs non-cooperation with in-group and out-group, we land on the following strategies:

Social Interactions

Of these, the most successful are the ethnocentric approaches, while the least successful are the ones that are non-cooperative within a group.[16] If ethnocentric populations will eventually win out, the question will be which one? It may be patriarchal men, but not necessarily Christian ones.[17]

Having covered the potential social solutions and found them largely wanting, the next part will discuss possible individual responses along with other conclusions and observations.


[1] No single causal factor could be identified, nor could any factor be identified as a primary cause of any other factor. Trying to piece together a clearer causal picture among these factors would require a deep historical examination.

[2] Woodley, M. et al. (2017). “Social Epistasis Amplifies the Fitness Costs of Deleterious Mutations, Engendering Rapid Fitness Decline Among Modernized Populations.” Evolutionary Psychological Science. doi:10.1007/s40806-017-0084-x.

[3] YouTube Videos

[a] Woodley, Michael A. (2019) “The social epistasis amplification model in mice and men
[b] Woodley, Michael A. (2019) “The co-occurence nexus: A general theory of secular trends
[c] Woodley, Michael A. (2019) “The Need for View Point Diversity in Academia
[d] YouTube censored this source.
[e] Dutton, Ed. (2019) “The Middle Class and the Decline of Civilization

[4] Adding mutant mice to a population of wild mice caused measurable changes to the brains of the non-mutant mice. The impact of mutant mice on non-mutant mice was not merely behavioral, but resulted in physiological changes in normal mice.

[5] Gunner Q. (2019) “The Evolutionist Snake In The Church.”

[6]Race and intelligence“, 2019. Wikipedia.

[7] Edwards, A. W. F. (2003). “Human genetic diversity: Lewontin’s fallacy“. BioEssays25 (8): 798–801. doi:10.1002/bies.10315.

[8] Biological determinism can be used both to reject personal responsibility for behavior (“born that way”) and to prejudge people on the basis of their genetics. Sometimes this is valid (e.g. “insanity defense”) and sometimes it is not.

[9] It is Christianity upon which the inherent moral worth of a person is based. Morally relative systems (e.g. atheistic materialism) must be rejected.

[10] Dutton E, Charlton B (2016) The Genius Famine

[a] Chapter 15: “What to do”
[b] Chapter 12: “The Rise and Fall of Genius”. Section “Decline of intelligence due to the most intelligent having the fewest children”

[11] Bureaucratic thinking has infected mathematics. It is no longer important that you get the correct answer, rather it is the process you used to arrive at your answer that matters.

[12] Split by political leaning, those on the far right dramatically outbreed those on the left and center. The right will outbreed the left, but on its current trend it will also lose intelligence in the process.

[13] We are already at a ~1600s level of general intelligence and it is declining.

[14] Christians may wonder if these are the end days. Historians may wonder if this is the end of a cycle of civilization and the beginning of a new one.

[15] Huebner, Jonathan. (2005). “A Possible Declining Trend for Worldwide Innovation. Technological Forecasting and Social Change” – TECHNOL FORECAST SOC CHANGE. 72. 10.1016/j.techfore.2005.01.003.

[16] Hartshorn, M., Katnatcheev, A. & Shultz, T. (2013). “The evolutionary dominance of ethnocentric cooperation.” Journal of Artificial Societies and Social Simulation, 16: 7.

[17] Trends in Europe suggest that Islam will prevail, but it’s very hard to predict.

25 thoughts on “Beyond Nature vs Nurture”

  1. This, right here is just simply not true:

    “If society could learn to value and harness the rare geniuses, it could increase innovations that support societal and economic progress.[10] This should be done in combination with the restoration of Christianity, as most geniuses are religiously motivated and aligned with objective truth.”

    Value and harness the rare geniuses. Okay….who determines this. Who determines who is the rare genius? Are all geniuses prone to work hard? Everyone tells me on the left on how much of a genius Noam Chomsky is, and when I listen to him….he lectures at MIT. What does he do? What does he produce? Books? Studies? Contextual language? He’s valued and harnessed now. If you are teaching at MIT (the finest poly in the the USA) and still not increasing any innovations except on PBS programming that no one watches…….really? A Genius????

    Yeah…..and he supports any candidate with a letter “D” for its political affiliation.

    Now you may say “no, he’s not a genius, he just thinks or the culture says he is one”

    So what are the defining things that make a genius? Just because someone is a Christian……..that makes them a genius now? Oh boy, we’re tellin’ the man-o-sphere something they already know. Subscribing to Game now makes one a genius evidently (rolls eyes)

    Plenty of geniuses may never accomplish anything. Why? Because they are human…..they make mistakes. They were lazy, or entitled because they thought they were one…or told they were. They may have set groundwork for a future thinker or tinker. They also plain and simple are not immune to ANY criticism. “Oh, he’s a genius……can’t question him” (even though he may indeed be wrong or proved wrong)

    Even Einstein did sigh once in lament “Yes…..time is money”

    So we separate geniuses at birth? Teach them. Who will teach them? Your pastor? The “best minds in the country” and we’re gonna put all our hope on them. What if they fail? Did we screen wrong?

    No, no, no! Most will say “I should have been selected” or “my kid is the real genius here”

    More of a contest and a way to virtue signal on the right or left of “This test, these experts say I am a genius”

    While all this is going on, a simple man or woman comes up with an idea at home, in a college or in their line of work that does indeed make an impact.

    To assume all geniuses are these devout, saintly christians and believers is really trite. Never met a scientist or inventor, or big patent holder at IBM that was a believer and “put god first” because if he indeed did. He would have never been at IBM.

    He would be on the red-pill-forum telling us all how amazing he is.

  2. “There are two groups that still breed: the religious and those with low intelligence.”

    I have not observed the former. What I have observed is that the people who do breed later join a church to take advantage of the (generally secular) social opportunities. Which explains both the statistics that say the religious are still breeding and the fact that most such religious people are severely deficient in conviction and knowledge.

    “Then—with increased individualism and intelligence—the Protestant Reformation (and eventually the Industrial Revolution) came.”

    The Reformation, like the Industrial Revolution, was brought about by technology. Protestantism would be impossible without the printing press making reliable copies of Scripture available to the masses. That was how the RCC came into existence, IIRC. Various churches pooled their resources for teaching literacy and reproducing holy writ after the fall of the Roman Empire, which led to seminaries and inevitably, bureaucracy.

    I doubt there was a general lack of intelligence in the Middle Ages. They did lack education but their architecture and crafts were enduring works of art.

    “If society could learn to value and harness the rare geniuses, it could increase innovations that support societal and economic progress.”

    Society has never been able to value and harness geniuses. Too many discoveries have come from otherwise very ordinary men, from Eli Whitney to the Wright Brothers to George Washington Carver. It would be sufficient for society to reward genius wherever it is found but that is incompatible with identity politics.

    “This should be done in combination with the restoration of Christianity, as most geniuses are religiously motivated and aligned with objective truth.”

    One should not advocate Christianity as a path to anything except Christ. It’s Prosperity Gospel to preach Christianity as a means to a desirable end such as fertility, money or “more geniuses”. Not sure if that was your intent here but it needs saying.

    “A popular sentiment in the manosphere is that society will—or should—collapse and that a new society will be built by patriarchal men”

    The Collapse is simple observation. Current trends from demographics to economics can’t continue and the correction is going to hurt. The new, improved society is simple regression. Our modern society is feminist to a degree not seen in at least two millennia so the next society will almost certainly be an improvement. After the killing stops.

    Personally, I think technology and loss of the Frontier has eliminated the possibility of any compromised solution. It’s Christ or Satan from here on because there’s nowhere to hide and reboot.

  3. Furthermore, this comment:

    “There are two groups that still breed: the religious and those with low intelligence.”

    So you are assuming the religious are of “high intelligence” then?

    So how does a man, let’s say who is Christian red-pilled and a has Frame decide to select his mate for “breeding” (raising a family)
    If she’s just a woman who has potential wifely skills…does this make her unintelligent? Does this make her possibly to bring down the offspring by her normal intelligence? Does being a red pilled man who is Christian make one a genius or above average intelligence? What if they have a special needs child…whose fault is it? Is society now “failed”???????

    I mean, this can go on and on and on. Reggie Jackson evidently has a very higher than average IQ, but he was “only” a baseball player. Brilliant TV screenplay writer Rod Serling had over 1000 rejections before CBS even ‘considered’ him for a series that changed how television was produced and made. How come he wasn’t accepted immediately.

    It doesn’t matter if I think Picasso’s modern art is good or bad. He “earned” the right to have any or all of his work declared art and many are indeed priceless. He did not fall out of the womb and began to paint.

    You spoke of the danger Eugenics…in abortion, and the like………..isn’t what is being puroprted eugenical? The born gifted (deemed or otherwise) are only worth saving. Those with tangible skills allowed to live. Those who just have the loudest voice, our the best physical looks because people will just naturally “trust” them more???????

    This opens up more than it answers, and is a tad frightening to me.

    I am not a number. I am a free man

  4. “Value and harness the rare geniuses. Okay….who determines this. “

    My language is anthropomorphic. No one harnesses geniuses, society the abstract entity does by passively reaping the benefits. The more society creates general cultural frameworks where geniuses can thrive, the more innovation. The goal is environments where innovations (especially of the economically useful variety) can on average develop and increase. This means supporting an anti-bureaucratic environment where individualism and Christianity thrive.

    “So you are assuming the religious are of “high intelligence” then? “

    No, not necessarily. Religiosity is very weakly correlated with intelligence (0.1). However, among the religious, those with lowest intelligence have the highest fertility. If all Christians had the same fertility rate, the correlation would increase. Religiosity is also positively correlated with almost every health benefit and lower mutational load. The religious are more genetically fit, but not necessarily especially intelligent. The goal of higher reproduction among the religious is (1) to outbreed and replace the maladaptive nonreligious and (2) to bring back Christian culture.

    “You spoke of the danger Eugenics…in abortion, and the like………..isn’t what is being puroprted eugenical?”

    Yes, but it is peaceful. Christians outbreeding non-Christians means nobody dies and everyone’s dignity is maintained. Indeed, atheists and feminists can continue to do what they do best: not have children. This is, by far, the most peaceful way out of dysgenic trends. It’s eugenics only in the sense that it isn’t dysgenic: it is beneficial to the group. Unlike the various other eugenic methods currently being field tested, this one isn’t immoral. For example:

    “The born gifted (deemed or otherwise) are only worth saving.”

    This is where abortion, IVF, and genetic modifications will inevitably lead. Custom designed humans with associated castes is an ethically monstrous concept. Christianity, which values all life, is not like this.

    “This opens up more than it answers, and is a tad frightening to me. “

    Yes it does and is. You could even argue that the main reason Christianity needs to make a roaring comeback is so that it provides the cultural pressure to ensure that governments don’t commit the monstrous acts they have already started doing.

  5. “The religious are more genetically fit, but not necessarily especially intelligent.”

    Christians are more obese, more likely to have diabetes, high blood pressure and other health related matters. Especially in the American South.

    “You could even argue that the main reason Christianity needs to make a roaring comeback is so that it provides the cultural pressure to ensure that governments don’t commit the monstrous acts they have already started doing”

    You’re not going to be winning over anyone when a man see his only option in the Christian faith is to learn Game. Squelch any disagreement. This is the solution that is being pushed, worshiped and encouraged. The other side is such a lukewarm faith that is laughable. So this comeback would include what? Another inquisition? More books? Another book about how men need to get married???????????????? Another Podcast telling us all about how god loves everyone….but makes some smart, some stupid, some handsome, some ugly…….some deformed and some to suffer…..for his sake…..and these folks then not even welcomed in the place he called them to fellowship????

    Good luck with your comeback. This series has been great, and interesting…..but like the communist manifesto before it….”it looks great on paper” and forgets human nature and a billion other variable that you are not going to predict.

  6. @Gunner Q

    I’m not sure if you’ve read my whole series, but if these are your main objections, then I must have presented my argument well. I agree with many of your responses. I’ll add a few comments.

    “I doubt there was a general lack of intelligence in the Middle Ages. They did lack education but their architecture and crafts were enduring works of art.”

    This may very well be the case. Future genetic research (e.g. polygenic scores) may provide us with better estimates that support this. If you are right, this may imply that we are worse off than I’ve suggested in this series.

    “Society has never been able to value and harness geniuses. [..] It would be sufficient for society to reward genius wherever it is found but that is incompatible with identity politics.”

    Yes exactly. At minimum society needs to get out of the way, but currently it is actively suppressing them. To top it all off, almost all geniuses are men and the educational system hates boys.

    “The Collapse is simple observation. Current trends from demographics to economics can’t continue and the correction is going to hurt. The new, improved society is simple regression. Our modern society is feminist to a degree not seen in at least two millennia so the next society will almost certainly be an improvement. After the killing stops.”

    I agree. This is an excellent summary. The purpose of this series has been to support this claim with evidence and to inform. Whether or not your predictions are correct, you and I probably won’t live to see it, but my children might.

    “One should not advocate Christianity as a path to anything except Christ. It’s Prosperity Gospel to preach Christianity as a means to a desirable end such as fertility, money or “more geniuses”. Not sure if that was your intent here but it needs saying.”

    No, that is not my intent. The Prosperity Gospel is not the same as acknowledging that Christianity has demonstrable benefits. The former is “God is a vending machine” while the latter is “You will know them by their fruit.” Only one is correct. We can look at history and see how Christianity has revolutionized culture and brought unprecedented peace and prosperity. That’s not Prosperity Gospel. It is not a prediction. It is just historical fact. During that time plenty of Christians have suffered and died (my Anabaptist brothers among them).

    “It’s Christ or Satan from here on because there’s nowhere to hide and reboot.”

    I do wonder if this is by design. No one will be able to say that they didn’t make a choice of who to serve.

  7. “Christians are more obese, more likely to have diabetes, high blood pressure and other health related matters. Especially in the American South. “

    That’s not the case if you correct for confounding variables. This is the same error that is made by atheists who argue that Christians have higher divorce rates. It’s a case of the cherry-picking fallacy.

    “This is the solution that is being pushed, worshiped and encouraged.”

    Not by me. Can’t speak for others.

    “So this comeback would include what? Another inquisition?”

    Nope. We need a society that freely chooses to live by Christian values.

    “Good luck with your comeback. This series has been great, and interesting…..but like the communist manifesto before it….”it looks great on paper” and forgets human nature and a billion other variable that you are not going to predict.”

    On paper, a comeback is highly unlikely and the suggested solutions are not going to happen. Humanity has the opportunity to turn things around, but it probably won't. People are going to die badly in a bunch of different ways. Suffering is going to get really bad and only a few will benefit… a lot like communism actually.

    The real question is this: if things are hopeless, what motivation do I have personally? And that, right there, is why this isn't the last article in this series (although it was supposed to be originally).

  8. and this christian utopia where everyone is humanely “bred” and we’re all geniuses……who is going to build the roads, pick up the garbage….wok in the sewer, remove the dead, care for the elderly?????? And countless other brainless and thankless tasks necessary for the society to function when everyone is so busy “driving and innovating” and being creative????? Debating societies then about who still is more genius than someone else? Who’s skills and genius requires more merit or is deemed “better”?

    Here in California I am amazed by the so-called “intellectual left”. These folks have it all figured out. I mean, most come from upper middle to upper class. Most have had the benefits of a ‘capitalistic’ society handed to them. Most, if not all are better looking, have much more status, and on paper I am sure much more smart than I am………….

    They claim they are doing this for a greater good…….when if fact its just the flipped culture of what you want. Of course, of course useless work must be done….but not by me, or my children…………………………..but by the not as mature christian….yes, yes…..we’re all part of the ‘body’ but “my” part is better and more useful than “yours”

    Fact is, us proles are no longer buying it…….from the elite secular /atheist class nor the christian class (and by their actions….what they DO are no better than these leftists). If both of these group actually believed that people in this once great nation were just “equal under the law” perhaps things would fall into line. That has been thrown out. Once side is a very identity politics side, the other a mindless god who speaks through some and ignores others on a whim.

  9. “and this christian utopia where everyone is humanely “bred” and we’re all geniuses”

    That’s not going to happen any more than it did the last time Christianity was in a culturally dominate role. But at least everyone had marriages with faithful wives. If you like the way things are now or want something completely different, then I guess you’ll object to these ‘solutions’.

  10. ‘final solutions’

    Yes, that’s right: parents, pastors, and elders telling devout young Christians to eschew contraception, premarital sex, abortion, and divorce while encouraging women to prepare for marriage, marry young, become stay-at-home moms, and have many more children is exactly equivalent to murdering Jews.

    The irony is that Ashkenazai Jews have significantly above-average intelligence. By killing Jews, the Nazis were acting in a dysgenic manner (at the human population level). This is an example of what I’ve stated already:

    “Nations will increasingly utilize these as means of population control. The bureaucrats utilizing these policies are not interested in solving the problems raised in this series. Bureaucracy, being inherently evil, will inevitably cause such policies to further damage, not repair, society.”

    It is extreme cognitive dissonance to call intelligence researchers racist because they discuss IQ differences (e.g. Asian/White vs Hispanic/Black) while simultaneously labeling them as antisemites. This is the kind of irrationality that happens when you discuss the things in this series. It is the all too common childish conflation of facts and values, a fundamental error in syllogistic reasoning.

    Yesterday, Joe Biden was asked:

    “Given that standardized testing is rooted in a history of racism and eugenics, if you are elected president, will you commit to ending the use of standardizing testing in public schools?”

    To which he answered “yes.” Saying there are group IQ differences is eugenic and racist and means full-scale murdering Jews is only a day or two away!!!1!

  11. “Once side is a very identity politics side, the other a mindless god who speaks through some and ignores others on a whim.”

    It is a myth that there is a meaningful fundamental difference between the left and the right, between liberals and conservatives. Both are bureaucratic, feminist, and secular. There are no sides there. You can’t serve two masters and none of them serve God.

  12. “Yes, that’s right: parents, pastors, and elders telling devout young Christians to eschew contraception, premarital sex, abortion, and divorce while encouraging women to prepare for marriage, marry young, become stay-at-home moms, and have many more children is exactly equivalent to murdering Jews”

    Well…..fair enough, not equal to murdering Jews. A devout Christian is supposed to be eschewing these above things you mentioned to begin with. Why do they need to be taught this if they are devout? Where are all these righteous real men of god that are going to be husbands to these women working so they can stay home? Every christian man now is going to become an engineer? What about intelligence and IQ then….I certainly do not have the intelligence be one. Nor ever did. So where would the massive “middle bell curve” work? The massive de-inudtrialization of this country since the mid 1970’s has not slowed. These average IQ types are going to have to work in lower paying jobs, and because of that they will be forced into lower standards of living or into neighborhoods with worse schools, or poorer housing and services……but that is their fault for just being born. The middle class which you are convinced “drove” this culture (they didn’t and never did) had at least a place to work. You cannot support a wife, children, a nice suburban home on a auto-tech income or entry level Trade profession AND be married at 20, 22, or 24. Yes, there are exceptions….but most cannot. Their “low IQ and intelligence” could be blamed, but you seem to enjoy that because of birth, circumstance and genetics most are going to be stuck….while you and few others will lecture about “a god fearing society”

    “It is a myth that there is a meaningful fundamental difference between the left and the right, between liberals and conservatives. Both are bureaucratic, feminist, and secular. There are no sides there. You can’t serve two masters and none of them serve God.”

    Lol…..and every single christian will vote for Trump in 2020 because he’s for “traditional american values”

  13. and Donald Trump “grabs women by the pussy” and supports abortion, and voted for Bill Clinton twice…hardly values worth defending or fighting for…….and I am far from a leftist or democrat

  14. “Why do they need to be taught this if they are devout? ”

    At the very least, they need not to be taught the same stupidities I was–marriage is great, but God may be calling you to a “season of singleness,” and active attempts to go find a husband is trying to force God’s hand. My churches did preach chastity, but without encouraging marriage or childbearing/childrearing.

  15. On a related note: It’s hard to see what’s actually there, rather than what you assume is there. This is why proofreaders often read things backwards. If you think it’s silly for a Christian who isn’t mentally deficient and who’s actually read the Bible to garner the conclusions I noted above, well, you’re right–but it’s not inexplicable.

  16. Your rhetorical questions nail the problem:

    “Every christian man now is going to become an engineer? What about intelligence and IQ then….I certainly do not have the intelligence be one. Nor ever did.”

    By current trends, the religious and low-intelligent will eventually outbreed everyone else. Average IQ will decline and there won’t be enough qualified for skilled jobs. High tech jobs will continue, but most people won’t have them. People will get poorer and suffer more. Income gaps will increase, at least until America signs its death warrant and elects a fully socialist government.

    “while you and few others will lecture about “a god fearing society””

    Lecturing is for the decadent. When the collapse comes, there will be no need to lecture. Many will become god-fearing again. Christianity is a hospital for the broken, and it will be badly needed in the times to come.

  17. Derek…..what does that graph prove? It can be used to prove many theories. The massive population rise after the post-war era…….massive immigration, women entering the work force (and that wasn’t only because of “feminism” countless women entered the workforce because economic necessity required it). Also, the massive retirement that is happening right now. I remember President Bush I. and President Clinton telling us that there was a massive “labor shortage” in the the USA…..pushing the floodgates open further and depressing and stagnating entry level wages more…..even in my field at the time. A tech writer in 1989 was pulling in around 50K a year. By the end of the 1990’s it was offshored to India mostly and the wages dropped in this para-professional field. Very little tech writing is done in the USA now.

    The red pill world will tell us “see, men are being forced out of the workforce…..we need to do something! Let’s mock them, call them beta, and blame feeble pastors for doing this!” Feminists could argue that this proves that there is a demand for work, but many are not working because of pay.

    The cost of living keeps rising, and this chart does not include the masses that are working two jobs. SO many things can be inferred from this, many that I have not even listed.

  18. Heidi. I don’t know what your statements mean. I have read the bible several times. The King James version……and the old testament is a book where kings, judges, and priests did “wicked things before the lord”. In the new testament, the story continues with redemption only if you confess jesus and then there was a guy named paul who pretty much made it impossible to follow jesus………and since then we have a church full of pastors, priests, and layity “doing wicked things before the lord”

    the modern church…..all of them……want to be all things to all people, and when it can’t….out comes “god has a plan” and “trust god” and “suffering is part of being a christian” (most christians wouldn’t know real suffering…..I mean, in Pakistan last week, twenty men were killed in a town for professing jesus…..and christians in the USA get mad if their latte wasn’t made right at the local starbucks, call this suffering)

    the church loves stuck single people, is just as judgmental as the world they condemn and needs the broken to stay broken….it’s their last revenue stream….the rest are drying up fast

  19. I simply meant that a) what churches promote is not necessarily the same as what the Bible teaches; b) churches ought to do better in that respect; c) it can be hard for us to distinguish between “this is what the Bible says” and “this is how my church interprets the Bible”; and d) that this confusion can lead to bad outcomes, such as girls not actively trying to get married and be good wives to their husbands. Sorry for any confusion.

  20. “Is Boxer no longer blogging here?”

    See here. Since my series has pretty much wrapped up (I’ll have a supplemental post coming in days or weeks), I expect Boxer will start writing any day now.

  21. “…mass death—war, starvation, genocide, criminalization and execution, and disease and epidemic—become more likely. Darwinian selection will return and most people will die.”

    Bumping this thread to note that the coronavirus disproportionately kills the elderly. I find it interesting that, despite the conspiracy theories that China weaponized the the virus (either intentionally or accidentally), no one is pointing out that the death of, say, 10% of China’s elderly would be a huge long-term economic benefit, no matter the short-term negatives. Indeed, many economists are largely assuming that any short-term economic loss in China will be more-or-less wiped out in later quarters.

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