History and Sexuality

72555143_2654658467919162_7334652295763722240_n

I try and shy away from posting heady stuff here, because my target audience doesn’t want complicated philosophy lectures. (they want memes, man…) Sometimes I just have to go there.

Down below, Jason (who has an account here, and who has contributed regular articles before) writes some stream-of-consciousness stuph in the comments that’s pretty interesting.

On shifting notions of marriage…

No man in here is married to a woman like this, needless to say…..looks like this. She exists, sure. No doubt….but she isn’t married to you, would never date a man like me and frankly has the time to do this (ie she doesn’t work…..and is married to a man who can comfortably provide on all levels). She isn’t married to the local guy in the church who has a mid level programming job. She is married to an executive.

I’ve seen photos of Derek’s wife. She’s not a huge fat beast, and she’s not ugly. The fact that you or I don’t consider her a hardbody 9/10 doesn’t matter much, because there’s only one man on earth she needs to stay attractive for, and he doesn’t seem to voice any complaints.

I could offer all the hottest skank-ho sluts on Tinder five-hundred bucks to try and seduce Derek for a night of no-strings fun, and I would bet money that he would laugh in their faces. Even if Hugh Hefner wouldn’t hire her as a playmate, she’s Derek’s playmate, and in a patriarchal society, that’s all that matters.

I could argue that in 1960 this was more common…..not because “feminism” or “chivalry” ruined everything….but an average guy who finished high school in 1955 after his two years service in the military could come back….get a half decent job in the local carpet mill, manufacturing plant, apprentice in the trades, or off to college / university (if he indeed was in the top 20% academic wise in high school)and marry a woman like this and provide for her. The cost of living was much lower, the US economy was growing at a whopping 10-12% a year (and we cheer today about how great things are if it grows at 3% a year)

Jason takes the classically Marxist position, that historical events are a direct result of economic factors. In this particular example, I agree that there has been a change in the meaning of marriage, and I don’t think he’s far off the mark, but I think it is shortsighted to shotgun all social problems as ultimately financial.

Consider the phenomenon of wimminz social praxis. Note that in 1960, there was a significant sense of shame attached to divorcing your man. People in that era who divorced each other (men and women alike) were seen as pathetic losers, irresponsible morons, and untrustworthy philanderers. A wimminz in 1960 would be shunned by all her friends, the day after she went down to the divorce court. A wimminz in 2019 is celebrated by these same useless cunts, and the few married females in these social circles are goaded and egged on to cash out and join the party.

Jason seems to contend that females in 1960 were more willing to marry a diesel mechanic because the average wage of a diesel mechanic could provide more disposable income and consumer goods to a woman. I’d argue that a significant factor is (again) social feedback from wimminz’ peers. In 1960, the 19-year old female who wasn’t married was considered a loser. In 2019, the 19-year old female who is married is considered a loser.

The woman in this picture…..her husband is not working as an auto mechanic at the local Ford dealer. No way. Her husband is not a carpenter. My dad was a lifelong Union carpenter, and a certified millwright, foreman for large jobs in the Upstate New York region….and a sought out craftsman for cabinets. The house I grew up in, he built in 1970. He even poured the foundation. The house btw sold for almost a million dollars in depressed rural northern New York State…….that’s how customized and well built it was.

To be clear, I don’t know the woman in the photograph. Apparently she has an instagram feed where she promotes the sort of traditionalism many in these parts admire. If she’s countercultural enough to do that much, I think it’s entirely possible that she’s married to a working-class guy.

Jason is assuming that all the carpenters and plumbers of 1960 went on welfare or got hooked on Vicodin and are now in the gutter. I think it’s just as likely that these men are now retired contractors. I’ve taught math to welders at community college. My students in that particular course all landed union gigs where they soon made more money than I do. If I could be married (and I’m sure that I could) then there’s no economic reason they can’t be (and many of them are.)

I don’t deny the existence of the social problem lamented by men like Jason. I just don’t buy into the idea of the primacy of economics. If I were able to grant one-hundred married men a million dollars each, it wouldn’t solve their marital problems. In contemporary society, it’d probably just add more incentive to the skanks they married to go down to the divorce courts, and get those papers filed.

Author: Boxer

Sinister All-Male Dancer. Secret King of all Gamma Males. Member of Frankfurt School. Your Fave Contrarian!

85 thoughts on “History and Sexuality”

  1. I try and shy away from posting heady stuff here, because my target audience doesn’t want complicated philosophy lectures. (they want memes, man…) Sometimes I just have to go there.

    Hey man .. that’s like .. your opinion .. heh!

    More on point .. I may have said it in a harsher tone in last post (other thread) .. but .. it comes from a place of care and not malice.

    It almost seems like he’s rationalizing why he hasn’t been able to do it .. I believe they call it the “tool box myth” (iirc).

  2. “I try and shy away from posting heady stuff here, because my target audience doesn’t want complicated philosophy lectures.”

    Meh, target audience, what do they know?

    “The fact that you or I don’t consider her a hardbody 9/10 doesn’t matter much, because there’s only one man on earth she needs to stay attractive for, and he doesn’t seem to voice any complaints.”

    Attractive women grow up and become less attractive. But that doesn’t mean that attractive women don’t marry normal guys. It happens all the time. I remember when my wife got lots of attention from men around her (despite having a wedding ring). It was nice being married to a hotly desired woman. Then, inevitably, the attention slowed and stopped. I think I like being married to her even more than I ever did before.

    I’ve been to a number of 40 or 50 year wedding anniversary parties. They always have pictures of each other when they were a very young couple. Those women were all beautiful, like the photo of the cake decorating woman.

    When I went to my 20 year high school anniversary, I saw a lot of my classmates happily married, including a women or two who were 10/10 in their youth. They are married to normal guys and the majority have children. Many have jobs that I know have only modest salaries. Marriages there ranged up to 20 years in length and I didn’t note anyone who has been divorced. The problem Jason is experiencing is not primarily economic, it is social.

    “I would bet money that he would laugh in their faces”

    You would win that bet. Perhaps worse than laughing at them, I’d flash them my wedding ring and then preach to them about the horrors of fornication, cohabitation, and so forth.

  3. I went to my 25th HS reunion (2013). I went to an all boys boarding school. Out of my class of 25 boys. Nine of us never married or had children. A few married after college, and are still married today. Everyone else was divorced, married again or living with / having kids with the live-in girlfriend after their first marriage crashed.

    None of us had stopped the world. I frankly hated just about every single one of them when I was there as a teen (getting bruised by a sock party because I “told the truth” about mass cheating during a major test in 1987). A sock party is when your peers in this place break into your dorm room, shove a sock in your mouth, hold you down, and proceed to “beat” you with a bar of soap inside a sock. I was welted and bruised badly for the next few days. Everyone (underclassmen) knew what had happened. The teachers knew what had happened. Nobody said a word. Boy / peer justice is “what” had happened in the dorm.

    I had more in common with many of them now I suppose. We all went to college / university. We all were from the greater Albany / upstate region. There was a lot of “I don’t remember that” and “Huh? Oh yeah……funny…..I guess”

    I wish I could put a finger on it……or explain it in a way that most people would at least find interesting or at least to make them take a point……but I am not really good at that in this medium.

    As for the “Toobox Fallacy” he uses experiences and clips from movies and pretend people. Not real life. There’s the fallacy

  4. Jason takes the classically Marxist position, that historical events are a direct result of economic factors. In this particular example, I agree that there has been a change in the meaning of marriage, and I don’t think he’s far off the mark, but I think it is shortsighted to shotgun all social problems as ultimately financial.

    Consider the phenomenon of wimminz social praxis. Note that in 1960, there was a significant sense of shame attached to divorcing your man.

    Well I have to give kudos to the Frankfurt school alum for pointing out the economy is not the major or only reason why wimminz were more apt to marry a fella. Both in the 60s and 70s we saw major shifts in how marriage and sex were viewed. Before the unleashing of the pill women had to be certainly more careful in which man they chose otherwise they’d face the scorn of potential single motherhood or being labeled as a whore. When the pill and other contraception came out that basically was Pandora’s box opening for taking procreation away from sex and then eventually marriage away from sex. Legalizing no fault and abortion were the logical conclusion as well as single motherhood spiking up.

    I don’t know if anyone else has done the research but there have been studies on how the pill directly affects how women choose a mate. It affects their brain and sense of smell. Long story short…they’d tend to pick weaker men closer to their genetic material rather than a more masculine man (because the pill simulates pregnancy hormones). I bet if we did a real deep dive into it…contraception is more of the factor than the economy.

  5. If I were able to grant one-hundred married men a million dollars each, it wouldn’t solve their marital problems.

    I’d bet banning contraception (and also no fault and abortion) would do more for marital problems than getting lots of money. It’s not the economy…it’s the promiscuity.

  6. Are you really this dense?

    As for the “Toobox Fallacy” he uses experiences and clips from movies and pretend people. Not real life. There’s the fallacy

    I can’t do X until I have Y. Once I have the (gym membership, tablet, camera, laptop, time), then I’ll be able to (workout, paint more, work on my photography, write, be happy.) That is the Toolbox Fallacy, and it has been one of the most persistent, tick-like, ever-present, lies to myself I’ve ever distinguished, infesting a wide variety of aspirations. Health. Love. Creativity. And the Toolbox Fallacy often hides in plain sight because, as with any good self-deception, it only works because there are certain circumstances when it’s actually true. It wouldn’t be so damn sticky if it were never valid.

    Here are some helpful examples:
    I can’t fly without a plane. — True.
    I can’t cook without heat. — True.
    I can’t drive without a license. — That’s not true, but it is good advice.

    Worse, often I found once I had the tool I was coveting, things still didn’t change. The new camera languished on the shelf. The computer became an instrument for gaming only. The Fitbit became a measure of all the steps I wasn’t taking during the day.
    The hard truth is that the lack of these things wasn’t actually what was wrong. Having a hammer is not what makes you a carpenter. USING a hammer is what does. A writer writes, be it with laptop, pen, crayon, or haiku carved in the sand with a branch. My Dad played the piano his whole life. When the family would take vacations, and there wasn’t an instrument in sight, I would sometimes catch him pounding a concerto out onto a table top, the notes echoing in his mind.

  7. Maybe the 1960s figure because ‘no fault divorce’ had not been created, but the 1950s were pretty wild for adultery at least. Some claim that ‘swinging’ between couples began in WW2. That doesn’t fit the way most men were stationed, but it does seem to have something to do with military bases in the Cold War, because the term ‘wife-swapping’ was coined in 1957:
    http://www.libchrist.com/swing/began.html

    OK biased source – someone disprove it if they can. ‘and then spread to the suburbs’. So many things which supposedly began in the 1960s can be traced to WW2 and the military, like drug addiction. And much of the ‘counterculture’ was a reaction to the hypocrisy in older society, bring it all out in the open, honestly, not hidden. The Stones’ song ‘Mother’s Little Helper’, the movie ‘The Graduate’. ‘1960’ should be 1950 more accurately, if you need to name a year.

    And here’s to you, Mrs. Robinson
    Jesus loves you more than you will know
    Whoa, whoa, whoa
    God bless you, please, Mrs. Robinson
    Heaven holds a place for those who pray
    Hey, hey, hey

  8. So a little over three years ago this guy put up a video that was in my feed about why you should watch Buffy. The first season was tunnel flow but that because the person on the puppy monumentally sucked in comparison to the fifth season which is the best followed by the third and then the sixth.
    Looks like baths are the tires looked at a piece of media and it does a summary and then an interpretation I’ve had an intellectual crush on him for like three years.

  9. “using a hammer is what makes you a carpenter”

    and even then probably not even a good one.

    “A writer writes, be it with laptop, pen, crayon, or haiku carved in the sand with a branch”

    while most of them starve……but boy oh boy he did what he wanted to do! Doubtful he married a the pretty stay at home mom type.

    “My Dad played the piano his whole life. When the family would take vacations, and there wasn’t an instrument in sight, I would sometimes catch him pounding a concerto out onto a table top, the notes echoing in his mind.”

    Thus making him the most alpha guy in the room. Scoring and pounding out a lot of music takes time. Must have had a boring vacation. Stayed stayed in the hotel room “pounding this out” while this guy and his mom and siblings had fun

    The clips are of famous people. He also had to make himself the man in demand to with “when they don’t call, they don’t text back”

    lucky him. Even with this “toolbox fallacy” he manged to get dates…all nines and tens I am sure.

    The clip in the end “be what you want to be! strive for it! go for it! And I’ll be that guy pointing and laughing at you when you fail!!!”

    Assh*le

  10. Worse, often I found once I had the tool I was coveting, things still didn’t change.

    Careful honeycomb….you go down that route it might mean they have to look in the mirror to find the real problem.

    I tend to listen to sportstalk all the time…specifically NFL football and the quarterback. I tend to notice there’s two camps with the talking heads…either the quarterback doesn’t have the help (offensive line, wide receivers, running backs are trash) or the quarterback himself is the problem which is why all the talent around him isn’t living up to their potential. That’s another example of the toolbox fallacy. Tools don’t make or break a good/bad leader…they just reveal what the leader is.

  11. Okay….since this post is about some observation I put up, I suppose I know have to defend it.

    Well……I can’t. It was an observation. About the picture. Most men don’t marry that. Most men cannot have that. I tried to put it on a base level of why.

    This post has proved me wrong.

    You’re all right. Men graduate high school, pursue a none or ten. Marry her and its cool. Now everyone is looking at me “what’s your problem…….easy…….most women are like this”

    So I am wrong. Boxer. I know you didn’t try to make me a fool, I suppose my observations did that on their own. You men won! I lost! I’ll just agree with whatever is purported on here from now on.

  12. lucky him. Even with this “toolbox fallacy” he manged to get dates…all nines and tens I am sure.

    The clip in the end “be what you want to be! strive for it! go for it! And I’ll be that guy pointing and laughing at you when you fail!!!”

    No one is entitled to a wife or a date with a 9/10.

    And you are upset you don’t get what you want / feel entitled to. So you make excuses why they could and you couldn’t.

    And instead of being happy for’em you act like a wommimz and try to tear’em down.

    Your negative and hateful attitude is your biggest problem. Not even th wimminz want to be around you. Much less a quality match.

    You are your problem moreso than th wimminz who aren’t worth your time.

    BIG middle finger to you with a Sean Penn smirk on my face

    I guess I had that coming for pointing out you think you have to have x before you can have y (e.g. I need a fancy job .. car .. bank account .. etc before I can get that girl I feel entitled to).

    What you need is a better attitude about life.

    And stop acting sean penn .. he’s a loser.

  13. Careful honeycomb….you go down that route it might mean they have to look in the mirror to find the real problem.

    Exactly.

  14. “You’re all right. Men graduate high school, pursue a none or ten. Marry her and its cool. Now everyone is looking at me “what’s your problem…….easy…….most women are like this””

    Can’t speak for the others, but I definitely said finding a good woman to marry is incredibly difficult and I’m making sure my boys are prepared for that reality.

    As for finding a 10, I learned a long time ago that what most men find to be a 10 is not especially attractive to me. If you had put that Hugh Hefner playmate in front of me when I was single, I wouldn’t have found her attractive then or now. Years before I knew I would befriend, date, and marry my wife, I thought she was the most attractive person of anyone I knew. Boxer pointed out that a husband sees through different eyes than everyone else, but at the same time people in general have different preferences. I don’t find the aforementioned woman in the picture to be particularly attractive. She’s fine, from my perspective a 6, 7, or 8 out of 10, but nothing I’d get excited about. Of course I once happily dated a 3 or 4 out of 10…

  15. You men won! I lost!

    We all have different experiences .. and it shapes our behaviors.

    Don’t live in self-pity (or envy) because of what you don’t have. And .. especially .. don’t let it shape what you think you can do without it (re what you don’t have).

    I’ll never marry a 8 or 9 or 10 either .. they have other options. I’ve come to grips with having dated’em (well no 10’s anyway).

    I’m happy for those men who do marry’em.

    I’m happier with 6-8’s with a good attitude .. and most of them wanted something different when I was younger (i.e. career .. not kids).

    You and me were born with bad timing compared to our previous generations of men (e.g. dads .. uncles .. grand-dads .. etc).

    No need to be mad about things we can’t control.

    Right?

  16. “Your negative and hateful attitude is your biggest problem. Not even th wimminz want to be around you. Much less a quality match.”

    You’re wrong. If you met me in person, you would say, think and wonder “Why are you not married????”
    Heard it a billion times since 1988. From women, from men, from co-workers, from the few friends over the decades, from people in church, from people out of church.

  17. Look. I retract the whole thing. Men who marry women like this (and they’re everywhere now) just walked up to her, asked her out and it happened. I asked out a few hundred women in my life, I should have just asked out a few hundred more.

  18. I am not going to comment anymore on this thread…..which means now you can disect what is wrong with me without a retort, making your observations “truth”

    -end

  19. You’re wrong. If you met me in person, you would say, think and wonder “Why are you not married????”

    Your giving women to much power over your happiness.

    Make something else your Mt. Ever-Rest .. and be content with what God has given you.

    It’s dis-en-gen-u-ess to think we just haven’t meet the right women.

    As for me I’ve meet more than my fair share .. but our timing was always off. I don’t regret one thing though about how things have worked out.

    As a confirmed bachelor .. I get lots of glares from th menz and wimminz at church and elsewhere .. and it pisses’em off I good with it.

    I’m loner at heart anyway. I’d rather do things alone. I’ve always been that way.

  20. Look. I retract the whole thing. Men who marry women like this (and they’re everywhere now) just walked up to her, asked her out and it happened. I asked out a few hundred women in my life, I should have just asked out a few hundred more.

    Strawman. No matter, though. I apologize for asking unauthorized questions and inappropriately disagreeing with one of your (and Uncle Karl’s) minor points.

    I am not going to comment anymore on this thread…..which means now you can disect what is wrong with me without a retort, making your observations “truth”

    Ever read this guy?
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/tarski-truth/
    Check him out some time.

  21. I guess I don’t get why guys would get hung up on not grabbing a superficially attractive woman. Most physically attractive women of what we would call the 8-10 range more than likely would have a personality you probably wouldn’t find attractive (they know how to look pretty and take good photos but are blander than a triscuit cracker personality wise)…and most likely aren’t high on the wife material list. Boxer’s photo from before is just a picture…we know nothing about what this woman is really like except she is physically appealing and can take photos that trigger insecure women. I certainly wouldn’t worry about if what I got would attract this woman…because she’s just a photo. This whole social media/instagram creation does more to promote superficial women into tricking us into thinking they are interesting.

    Really if you can find that sweet spot of finding a woman attractive enough to you and a pleasant personality that you actually like each other…that’s probably best.

  22. “Ever read this guy? Check him out some time.”

    I for one remember. I tend to get hung up on Tarski’s undefinability theorem. Past that point it starts to go beyond my mathematical and logical pay grade. Regardless, since truth can’t be formally defined—and as I’ve previously maintained—I find solace in the philosophies of truth and existence underpinning Christian metaphysics. Perhaps God can in some sense be the stronger metalanguage truth definition of our language. There is a certain appeal to this. It does imply that we can never really apprehend the truth (or definition) of God (at least with language), though I dare say this is also a traditional Christian viewpoint.

  23. “Perhaps God can in some sense be the stronger metalanguage truth definition of our language.”

    In light of Tarski’s work and the problems of the liar paradox on a formal definition of truth, I find it very interesting—perhaps even profound—that the Bible states that God cannot lie.

  24. In light of Tarski’s work and the problems of the liar paradox on a formal definition of truth, I find it very interesting—perhaps even profound—that the Bible states that God cannot lie.

    That’s a vacuous truth, since God has never bothered to talk to anyone, ever.

    (which isn’t entirely an atheological defense… if I were God, I wouldn’t bother talking to any of us idiots either)

  25. There is a minimum level of intelligence required to get beyond binary thinking, but psychological conditioning, ignorance, and exhaustion can each simulate a lower intelligence than is actually present.

    So, our society has created people like you, Jason, through a variety of different means such that you are allowed to be intelligent enough to understand the disparity between what you have been told you could have and what you actually have, but not enough to ever go beyond that or do anything about it. Folks like you know enough to hunger, but not enough to then feed yourself, but there are a million gurus and experts who are happy to give you a fish with the promise of more if you just listened to them.

    And this was done to you on purpose.

    Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery is torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress towards more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love or justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy everything. Already we are breaking down the habits of thought which have survived from before the Revolution. We have cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer. But in the future there will be no wives and no friends. Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty towards the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always — do not forget this, Winston — always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — for ever.’ – George Orwell, 1984

    What people do with struggles, not whether they have them or not, is what actually tells us something about who they really are.

  26. What does “1984” have to do with my stupid comment (which has been agreed by the ‘learned’ men in here that it was indeed stupid) about a woman in picture decorating a cake, and evidently everyone knows “tons” of men who are married to this, and they all are pump-jockeys for a living.

    Your far reaching, overt symphony here to link social human government systems to this and my “struggle” really demeans the genius of Orwells writing, and the warning he was giving western societies after the end of the most brutal, destructive war in history.

    Winston Smith is all of us. We all see a bit of ourselves in him. We want him to win. We want him to join that underground and somehow topple it all. We want him to make that stand………and he does. He too fails. He “loved” Big Brother in the end. He even betrayed Julia. The folly of us daring to stand against a system like that once entrenched is daunting. Struggles make the best of men at their time……….who knew that a sickly, nerdy bespeckled man named Dieter Bonnhoeffer would be the ONLY voice from the church to make a stand against the evils of the nazi party and put himself into history. Says more about the church actually and the leadership in it at that time. He paid with his life though.

    Winston Churchill suffered bouts of depression, wailed on the suicide of his son, had a rough marriage and many failures militarily in his career before becoming a leader that his people did indeed rally around in the time they needed him.

    If we went alone on his past “struggles” he would be deemed a terrible father, a bad husband and had no business in the military.

    So, go ahead….make my silly observation into some “grandious” comparison to “1984” I am sure you’ll get lots of agreement here and “you sure told him!!!”

  27. and evidently everyone knows “tons” of men who are married to this, and they all are pump-jockeys for a living.

    I think I’ve figured it out .. you hate that trade-school grads make more money than you do.

    You’re envy is huge. Unlike your income.

    Your elite-ism is showing too .. big four year grad makes a small income while mem in the trades are making bank. And with little if any debt.

    Your white collar job has failed you. The advice people gave you has failed you. You still believe their lies amd play by their rules.

    So there is no mis-understanding .. those “pump-jocks” [sic] are making north of 150k/yr. With a solid pension and a generous 401k plan .. not to memtion a much lower tax state. Who’s the pump-jock now? /S

    Probably won’t help your jealousy of those that followed a different path to success.

    Keep following someone else’s idea of success. And hating everyone else for not playing by the rules you do.

    Smart people change based on the reality they are faced with .. dumb folks expect everyone else to change for them.

  28. Wow Honeycomb, I didn’t realize men have made it. This whole red pill thing is a myth, just graduate high school go work at a gas station, go to barber college and you will have the gorgeous woman in the pic, a nice house, no problems.

    Man….and from the man-o=sphere things just could not get any worse……….I suppose the new marriage stats will reflect this very soon. Cross your fingers 🙂

    Dumbass

  29. I didn’t know pumping gas paid a 150K year. Things must be booming in the south.

    It’s not the only thing you don’t know. But, admitting your limits is a good start.

    Dumbass

    Yeah .. I’m the dumbass .. let’s check my resume .. College Grad (for free) .. Navy Nuclear & Submarine Operator .. Airline Captain / Pilot .. Commercial Nuclear Operator .. and I’ve never failed a drug test.

    I’m pretty sure when I need a masculine / sane opinion .. it won’t be from a Commi-Fornia resident .. well other than GQ.

  30. Honeycomsb. Seriously you and your ideal men are losers. Get with it, dude. Reality rules. You are so in the fray; give it up, loser.

  31. Honeycomsb. Seriously you and your ideal men are losers. Get with it, dude. Reality rules. You are so in the fray; give it up, loser.

    My ideal men? They’re not my ideal men. You’re missing the point.

    Jason sez you have to be a CEO and be a mega bucks PUA to get that girl.

    You do not.

    Of course those men are blue pilled (mostly) .. and those wimminz not up to my standards for various reasons.

    But you’d have to be a fool to think, just because I’m offering a counter point to Jason’s claims, that these are my ideal dudes [sic] or gals.

    Those men are fools in my opinion (re: getting married) .. and those wimminz are still wimminz. But, those men can do what Jason sez is impossible .. all so it assuages his ego and provides cover for his failings.

    Clr .. you’ve fallin for the ole everyone who talks nice to you is your friend and everyone who critics you is your not your friend trap.

  32. Wow Honeycomb, I didn’t realize men have made it. This whole red pill thing is a myth, just graduate high school go work at a gas station, go to barber college and you will have the gorgeous woman in the pic, a nice house, no problems.

    Fortune is a pretty strong component that people seem to be missing. How did the happily married men land their wives? Being around at the right place and time played a big part. What’s the correct spatiotemporal location for attracting a wife? No one knows. Women are so unpredictable that the “rules” we talk about here only increase one’s probability. They provide him no guarantees.

    Dumbass

    That isn’t a valid argument.

    Honeycomsb. Seriously you and your ideal men are losers. Get with it, dude. Reality rules. You are so in the fray; give it up, loser.

    That isn’t a valid argument, either.

    Best,

    Boxer

  33. Clr I believe was trying poorly to imitate a California accent……..and he did a real poor job. Honeycomb took that bait as someone serious. Yeah. He is more of an accomplished man that I’ll ever be. But heck? People with IQ’s in the 90’s range (average) are not going to be airline pilots and commercial nuclear operators….but he’s still a dumbass

  34. People with IQ’s in the 90’s range (average) are

    Are you making a womminz argument?

    “I’m educated so I must be smarter than you.”

    These men working trades ain’t dumb (or dumbazzez). Even with or without a college degree (2 yr or 4 yr). These men aren’t unattractive to wimminz. Proof is in the puddin.

    And that bothers you. So you call them clowns (and other names) and try to disqualify’em to make you feel better.

    Again, whatevva makes you sleep better at night.

    I sleep fine even though I think marriage and th wimmimz are train-wrecks for our men and country.

    As a side note .. These same men (including my brothers) are raising their girls to be (imho) monsters. And there’s nothing me or you can do about it.

    The cycle continues. And I’m good with that too. God’s plan and His Will, will be done.

  35. “These men working trades ain’t dumb (or dumbazzez). Even with or without a college degree (2 yr or 4 yr). These men aren’t unattractive to wimminz. Proof is in the puddin.”

    Hey, you brought up your resume and how smart you were. You also believe that men working as pump jockey make 150K a year…….in fact you told me there were a lot more things I didn’t know besides that.

    Your typical PUA / Game / alpha response to men who don’t tow your line of thinking:

    Call them a womminz and / or berate their manhood. How christian of you

    Most men working the trades I didn’t say were dumb, I did state that they were not attracting a wife who looked like that woman in the picture, with all the trappings (she stays home, wears pearls, decorates cakes all day, owns a nice home on ONE income).

    You, and Derek told me that you know “tons” of men like this. They work in a trades, have a very attractive wife like in the picture. You made it clear I was wrong. I retracted my statement. I was wrong. There is no marriage strike. Men are getting married to solid, great, feminine women with no effort. They just are attractive to these women, and that’s that!

  36. “How did the happily married men land their wives? Being around at the right place and time played a big part.”

    Agreed to a point. The complete picture involves a complex combination of variables: my own attributes and abilities, who I happened to be friends with, where I was born and who my family was, my religious beliefs, and some measure of luck. I could estimate the weight of all of those variables for me, but how could I apply that to others?

    I don’t talk about it much, but I almost married the wrong girl. What kept me from making that mistake was my discipline: refusal to have sex and refusal to walk down the aisle until the negotiations phase of the relationship was concluded to my satisfaction. Still, it was a close thing as it was she that ended the relationship, not me. The only part of that process that was pure luck was our coming into contact with one another in the first place. Not marrying her was mostly not luck.

    Allow me to generalize. If you are disciplined and red-pilled (as it were), you don’t have to be very lucky to avoid marrying the wrong girl, but you will need luck to marry the right one.

    When I give advice it is usually in two main ways. First, I give statistically derived suggestions for how to vet a woman, that is, how to avoid marrying the wrong girl. This is generally useful, but does not guarantee you will find and marry the right one. So second, I’ll give advice that is more specific, less generally applicable (e.g. “Get out of California”), harder to implement successfully, and comes with no meaningful guarantees or assurances.

  37. “You, and Derek told me that you know “tons” of men like this. They work in a trades, have a very attractive wife like in the picture.”

    Jason, the statement above is correct, but the statement below is not correct and does not logically follow from the above.

    “There is no marriage strike. Men are getting married to solid, great, feminine women with no effort. They just are attractive to these women, and that’s that!”

    I can see the successful normal men who marry good normal women. It’s not just personal anecdotes either. I can even cite you the marriage, divorce, and birth statistics for our area to prove conclusively that—even without correcting for religious differences—the trends hold true. I’m not trying to defeat your argument, it’s just reality. I completely acknowledge that your reality is different.

    There is a marriage strike. I can prove that with statistics as well. It takes a lot of effort to marry. Again, I can cite evidence all day supporting that claim. But this is independent of attractiveness. Men who marry successfully do so whether the parties involved are attractive or not (and whether they are rich or poor). Attractiveness is just not all that important on the list of most important attributes in a marriage.

  38. To be clear, attractiveness is fairly unimportant in a marriage. It plays a much more significant role getting to that point.

  39. “To be clear, attractiveness is fairly unimportant in a marriage. It plays a much more significant role getting to that point.”

    Well……there is the answer I have indeed been looking for all these decades…….even before I moved to California. I knew it all along, but held the belief that perhaps, just maybe…..maybe……I could win on other things I had going for me. Hobbies. Stuff that I was into……..things I liked doing, volunteering……things and experiences that just made me the man that I am.

    I was a fool’s fool for thinking otherwise. Thanks Derek. I am not being sarcastic. Its the biggest pile o truth I have heard in awhile

  40. The complete picture involves a complex combination of variables: my own attributes and abilities, who I happened to be friends with, where I was born and who my family was, my religious beliefs, and some measure of luck.

    By “my religious beliefs” you mean the fact that you were able to find a cute wife partly by means of a strong ingroup pressure. You’re a member of a tight ethnoreligious minority, just like me.

    I could have been a married ditchdigger too. I would have had to serve an L.D.S. mission, and I wouldn’t have married any of the girls in the top tier Mormon families, but I would have had a cute wife. Had I moved out to the country, I’d have been able to have two or three at once.

    We are not representative of the real problem that Jason and Honeycomb are hashing out. The vast majority of Prods, Cats and Jooz are completely atomized, and men of those mainstream backgrounds get no support in wifecatching from their elders.

  41. To be fair Jason, I’m not the most attractive man either. That was even truer in my youth. On the 1 to 10 scale, my wife was certainly higher than I was. It goes to her credit that she didn’t chase the 9 or 10 out of 10 man, because she could have. So while I got somewhat lucky finding a girl who looked past the pure role of attractiveness, there is no doubt that my options were somewhat limited. Besides my wife, I only once had even a 5+ women give me any interest at all (let alone offers of marriage!).

  42. You don’t have to be fair Derek. I appreciate the truth. I don’t appreciate being lied to. Beauty may indeed be only skin deep but ugly goes to the bone……and your statement IS a truth. It’s something the man-o-sphere, game advocates, christian nonsense of “god doesn’t make ugly people…..everyone equal” and women stating that “looks don’t matter to them”

    Thanks. Really. I mean that.

  43. Jason .. you’re hopeless.

    I know you gentlemen are having fun trading insults, and far be it for me to tell either of you to stop. I’ve certainly enjoyed more than my share of that particular entertainment.

    Both of you guys are talking about a real problem that’s relevant to this blog. Unfortunately, the solution lies in knowing something about women and how they work. I don’t pretend to have such answers. I have speculated in the past that women were evolved to behave this way, though.

    Men and women evolved to pair bond — if not for life, then at least for several years — because our children are uniquely helpless. Baby rhinos, lions, chimps and warblers emerge almost ready to walk and forage. Baby humans take many months to do this. That made fathers evolutionarily necessary.

    So, when you are talking about human beings, you are never talking about individuals. You’re talking about a group of at least two, generally with children in tow. You’re talking about a system.

    And this is the weakness of MGTOW: Humans aren’t ‘lone wolves’. A human being is more akin to a member of the corporation you boys work at, than it is to a lone wolf, who is fine living at the outskirts of society, fucking random she-wolves when he can get away with it, and doing his own thing.

    At the corporation you work at, there are probably attorneys, maybe a nurse or three, probably engineers, and then there are workers on the production floor. It’s not necessary for the guy who is running the machine to know the law, or even understand what the attorney in the office down the hall does.

    Men and women generally don’t understand one another. Why should men and women expect to understand one another? The attorney and the machinist don’t understand each other, either, they just know that they couldn’t have such a nice life otherwise.

    I see people coupled up and know that many of them seem happy. I’ll confess to having no idea how they got to that point. I have a job, and I still can’t figure out how I was hired over all the other candidates (most of whom are way smarter and better than I am). It doesn’t matter, in the end. All I know is that marriage, like employment, happens.

  44. As for the issue Honeycomb and I are hashing out:

    *calling someone a dumbass isn’t a valid point. Agreed. I just like the word because I couldn’t use it or say it when I was a practicing christian.

    *women who look like the woman in the picture are everywhere, and are being supported comfortably by men who work at a gas station. This is a fact, you all know tons of them.

    *Evidently I am jealous of people with a lesser education than myself. I could argue all day that I am not, and that still wouldn’t change opinions. You’re talking to a man who’s 185 year old undergrad has just closed thanks to SJW policies and antics. Breaks my heart. My father dropped out of school at 16, joined the USAF. Got his GED. Became a life long Union carpenter. Had a decent life. Didn’t marry a woman who looked like one in the picture and his wife had to return to work……but I must be delusional………no two-parent household incomes today. Trump fixed everything. Those that have this two income household thing are blue- pilled men and have feminist wives.

    *Evidently I have a spirit animal, and its that donkey from those Winnie The Pooh Disney cartoons………I have no idea what that means. Spirit animals that is. Eyore in the AA Milne storybooks (not the Disney rehashing) was a donkey who was indeed a bit somber….but donkeys lived a long, long time and had an excellent memory. Doesn’t match me. I have a terrible long term memory, and I am not going to be living a long long time. Neither are most of us. Somber and hopeless? No, if I was hopeless I would have jumped off The Golden Gate a decade and a half ago. Somber? I suppose. When one is always told “no” and “you’re not good enough” and “you don’t have what it takes” and a billion other snide put downs…….it does wear on me. With that said I have overcome much, and proved the “naysayers” wrong…..and the naysayers never apologized either. Being the arrogant pricks that they are.

  45. “You’re a member of a tight ethnoreligious minority, just like me.”

    It’s true that I was, but not my wife. She may be descended from the original Mennonite minister, but she grew up liberal PCUSA who went to public school for a while. She was a cultural import. Moreover, after we married, we only attended an Anabaptist church for about half a decade or so before moving back to mainline Protestant.

    I opted out of marrying within my group. This was partially because I was too unattractive to get my choice of picks (competition was insane!), but also because I wanted to live a different lifestyle that was somewhat incompatible with the group. I’m still a member of the group by extended family ties and by religious beliefs, but not by marriage or current physical circumstances.

    The population of the Pennsylvania Dutch geographical area is too dense and suburban to be dominated by any one ethnoreligious minority group. There is a strong cultural tone, no doubt, but it easily crosses lines. The barriers to entry are not necessarily high, at least for the young.

    In Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, Amish make up just 6% of the population, yet their cultural influence dominates. By contrast 10% are Catholic, but their cultural influence is almost non-existent. The 50% of the population that has no religious affiliation is still strongly influenced by the overall culture (this shows up in the statistics I mentioned).

    I don’t think you can make the argument that the group is tight in the exclusive sense. Instead I argue that it’s culture influence is disproportionate to its size and that all parties see benefits.

    “We are not at all representative of the real problem that Jason and Honeycomb are hashing out.”

    Perhaps. I hope Jason appreciates that point when I disagree with him here and there. I do know that I am just a side show to their very interesting discussion.

  46. Dear Jason:

    Please see inside text…

    women who look like the woman in the picture are everywhere, and are being supported comfortably by men who work at a gas station. This is a fact, you all know tons of them.

    I don’t know that it’s fair to characterize the opposition as saying this. When I first saw that photo, I thought the chick looked like one of those silicone dolls. I don’t know if that’s because of conditioning (she looks artificial because I’m used to seeing wimminz looking like fat slobs in our society) or not. Either way, I can agree that she seems so unrealistic as to be almost otherworldly.

    Evidently I am jealous of people with a lesser education than myself.

    I have a lesser education than you. You went to a fancy liberal arts school. I went to a Catholic university for undergrad on scholarship, and then I went to state universities for more training in specialized disciplines. Your college would have laughed at my application, and even if they somehow had space for me, they definitely wouldn’t have given my dumb ass any free money. I know this for a fact because I applied to such places as a teenager. The answer was an overwhelming “Get the fuck out of here!”

    I could argue all day that I am not, and that still wouldn’t change opinions. You’re talking to a man who’s 185 year old undergrad has just closed thanks to SJW policies and antics. Breaks my heart. My father dropped out of school at 16, joined the USAF. Got his GED. Became a life long Union carpenter. Had a decent life. Didn’t marry a woman who looked like one in the picture and his wife had to return to work……but I must be delusional………no two-parent household incomes today. Trump fixed everything. Those that have this two income household thing are blue- pilled men and have feminist wives.

    I used to get into huge arguments about exactly this over on the Dalrock blog. The hardcore types would make claims such as:

    *Nice women don’t exist.
    *All women are looking for a chump to use once and divorce.
    *All the happily married couples you know personally are secretly miserable.

    I understand why you guys take these positions. It’s incredibly comforting to see the world this way, because it absolves you of any responsibility. I can’t join you. The fact is that over half of first marriages succeed. It’s possible that all those married people are secretly miserable victims of the marriage conspiracy, but it doesn’t seem very likely that they’re all outwardly projecting the illusion of happiness. If every woman was a skank-ho wimminz, then why aren’t more of these women cashing out and destroying their husbands? Certainly there’s no downside to doing exactly that in this society.

    The only confederate I ever found was AfOR, who is now dead. That guy was honest enough to posit that nice women probably do exist, but they aren’t bothering to stand out among the skank-ho wimminz, and thus it is not our job to try and discern which is which. No one has ever bothered to dispute this, and I remain convinced that it’s the only sane way to see the world.

    And this is where you’re absolutely correct. Even if that traditional woman is what she claims to be, why is she not out protesting against the family courts? Why is she not handing white feathers to the feminists? Her fans will pretend she’s doing this via her instagram feed, but to me (and I think to you too) that’s just so much female attention whoring, and it’s probably not motivated by a desire to make a positive change in the social fabric.

    Boxer

  47. Boxer:

    You stated: “I don’t know that it’s fair to characterize the opposition as saying this”

    From “One from The Sister”

    “That womminz above looks like a lot of guys from work(s) wives. Most if not all are stay home moms. And they are Joe working stiffs (aka journeymen instrument and controls techs .. electricians .. mechanics .. operators .. etc). So I see it everyday.” Honeycomb

    “Jason, the attractive stay at home mom with domestic skills—who also wears dresses, has long hair, is faithful, and a mother of many children—who marries a normal working man is not a myth. I have many friends and relatives who fit this bill. I’ve seen it in farm country, but I’ve also seen it elsewhere (in the Northeast, Florida, etc.).” Derek

    I think I am being fair in characterizing the opposition.

  48. “That womminz above looks like a lot of guys from work(s) wives. Most if not all are stay home moms. And they are Joe working stiffs (aka journeymen instrument and controls techs .. electricians .. mechanics .. operators .. etc). So I see it everyday.” Honeycomb

    I think you’re reading this a bit less metaphorically than I am. I know lots of men (former students I only see on social media) who are working class guys, who are, in fact, married to women and having kids. Those men I’m thinking of are welders and plumbers.

    The women in question don’t look realdollish like the instagram troll does. They look like normal women: cute but not perfect.

    “Jason, the attractive stay at home mom with domestic skills—who also wears dresses, has long hair, is faithful, and a mother of many children—who marries a normal working man is not a myth. I have many friends and relatives who fit this bill. I’ve seen it in farm country, but I’ve also seen it elsewhere (in the Northeast, Florida, etc.).” Derek

    To say these women are vanishingly rare entails the need to explain people like Derek and Heidi and other marrieds who post here. Surely such people even exist in California.

    I definitely know they exist. It’s harder for me to argue that the men in question are as happy as they appear to be. I can buy the (common on Dalrock) argument that married families are operating under a “threatpoint” and are thus less pleasantly married than they were 50 years ago. I can’t buy the claim that they’re all secretly miserable and are living some dishonest theatre for the benefit of observers, though.

  49. “I think I am being fair in characterizing the opposition.”

    I don’t disagree, but I explicitly state the attributes implied by the picture, not the picture itself. So…

    “attractive stay at home mom with domestic skills—who also wears dresses, has long hair [and no debt or tattoos], is faithful, and a mother of many children—who marries a normal working man is not a myth”

    …whether she looks exactly like the woman in the picture is irrelevant, because that picture is meant to invoke those attributes. It’s a caricature, but one which is appealing. Also, no woman is that attractive forever, so as long as she fit the attractive profile at some point in their married life, that satisfies my claim.

    Jason, those working men I talked about who married the attractive girl and didn’t go to college? Many were more attractive than me, thus ahead in the line to pick their own girl. My objection to your argument is that many very attractive men end up as typical working man, including those who marry the most attractive girls. Next time you visit a farmhouse of a good looking farmer living in farm country, go look at the wedding pictures hanging on the wall of his house and you’ll see what I mean.

  50. Oh….now the women in the picture is irrelevant. It was “accepted” that “tons of men marry women who look like this”
    before, but since I called that out……..out come the variables and “what the picture implies”

    Just like you know it alls when I was in church or a bible study “Well, jesus said to help the poor”

    “No….no, what he really meant / what he was impling” and a ton of variables

    I grew up in rural America. My hometown had a population of 800. No housewife looked like that, and all married women were working a job because they loved their husbands and family and economic necessity demanded it…but according to the rest of the county “no, no…….everyone I know / tons of average Joe’s married a woman like this….easy to do……..simple……..just went out, got a job, made a living…….everyone does this”

    Even Honeycomb said pump jockeys are pulling over 150K a year……….easy! Simple.

  51. “Oh….now the women in the picture is irrelevant [..] out come the variables and “what the picture implies””

    I was late to the party and that was my opening salvo. You don’t have to like it, but that’s what I said initially. You’ve read my comments long enough now to know that I often speak about variables and statistics. Giving advice on how to nudge the probabilities in your favor is what I do. Moreover, I said this:

    “I don’t find the aforementioned woman in the picture to be particularly attractive.”

  52. And then…..next week, I’ll hear from this same type of crowd that “feminine women are very rare” and “you just have to learn game, read a book by a man named rollo, go to college in the STEM field, get a good job, work really hard, ask women out cause ‘they don’t bite’ and you’ll have a docile wife who is so thirsty for male dominance and leadership….she’ll burn the roast beef over how much she loves you”

    Still then made out as if it’s “easy” to do.

  53. Oh….now the women in the picture is irrelevant. It was “accepted” that “tons of men marry women who look like this” before, but since I called that out……..out come the variables and “what the picture implies”

    You’re not wrong, and I’m sorry if it seems like I’m being dishonest. We read the same thing:

    “attractive stay at home mom with domestic skills—who also wears dresses, has long hair [and no debt or tattoos], is faithful, and a mother of many children—who marries a normal working man is not a myth”

    And I read it as:

    many men seem to find domestic women who are cute and pleasant and want a family

    I think you read it as:

    many men seem to find hot women with perfect figures and such incredible makeup skills that they look flawless

    If that’s an accurate representation of what you read, then I agree with you, it’s bullshit.

    Most of the married women I know are regular women, not hot-ass hardbodies. The ones with kids tend to be 10-20 pounds overweight, but they don’t tend to be more overweight than that. Their husbands are usually 10-20 pounds overweight also.

    Most of the married people, men and women alike, could probably find more attractive sex partners if they were single, but most of them could not find a more attractive spouse, and they all seem to know this, and are fine with the tradeoff.

  54. You men cannot for one iota admit that perhaps you are incorrect. It was about woman the picture at first….but now it’s not. …it’s what she represents and “tons of men are married to that” (a stay at home mom, husband working a non-college related job, owning a nice home, she doesn’t have to work, and they make more than enough to support this…..and they married women who looked like that woman in the picture)

  55. You men cannot for one iota admit that perhaps you are incorrect.

    Pot meet Kettle.

    It was about woman the picture at first….but now it’s not. …it’s what she represents and “tons of men are married to that” (a stay at home mom, husband working a non-college related job, owning a nice home, she doesn’t have to work, and they make more than enough to support this…..and they married women who looked like that woman in the picture)

    Yes, that is what I’m saying.

    (For the record we now require a minimum of a two year degree for our “Pump-Jockey’s” and a four year degree for our “Operator’s” .. which was not the case when I got here. And, I stated that in my post.)

    Keep making excuses for your lot in life. I’ll keep laughing that you for your silly belief that only the “educated / white-collar” jobs can score that honey.

    When people tell you what a swell guy you are .. they are lying to you. You’re a prick. And, you choose to expose yourself to frequently for the opposite sex not to notice.

  56. No one has ever told me what a “swell” guy I am.

    And……..a pump jockey is a man who pumps gasoline for a living. You know, at the gas station. At Chevron, Arco, and Shell…..or whatever chain they have in the south. The car drives up, he comes out and fills the tank.

    I’m a prick. Yeah, you would think that.

  57. “You men cannot for one iota admit that perhaps you are incorrect.”

    Incorrect about what, exactly? Women who look like the woman in the picture are not hard to find if you look among the already married women. Good luck finding them among the single women. They are already married by the time they look like that.

    1) I’ve been to many houses with that kind of decor (flowers and clocks). It’s not strange or complicated. You find its like when there is a stay-at-home-mom with at most two kids. You don’t see this in households where the woman works, because they can’t keep the house that clean.

    2) Women with long hair like this are not hard to find. I see them all over my church. Interestingly, it is brown and not dyed blond, which is considered more attractive.

    3) This is obviously a staged photo. By the time you ice the cake (usually the next day), the other components would have been put away in the cabinets. Nobody makes a cake on a lace tablecloth. Thus, expecting us to treat it so black and white literal is absurd. It’s obviously a caricature intended to imply the specific domestic lifestyle.

    4) Tasteful jewelry around the neck is not uncommon, nor is a nice dress. This photo is staged to look she’s preparing a fancy dinner or a birthday party for adults on a Sunday afternoon. In that context, there is nothing unusual about her clothing. This goes along with the makeup, although plenty of women wear makeup no matter what the occasion is.

    Just my thoughts on the matter. YMMV.

  58. Derek:

    1) I grew in a house that was spotless and clean and my mother worked full time from 1979 onward. I had a brother that was always in a hospital, always needed care, as always sick, was always in some sort of recovery, and was attended to. There was a plain but filling and hot meal on the dinner table every night.

    2) I never once mentioned in my replied that “women don’t have long hair today” stop making / adding variables and trying to make me a fool.

    3) Glad you know more about cake baking / decorating than I do.

    4) And all done on a salary of an “average joe” who works at a gas station, or drives a forklift…..easy to afford…you just have to really “want it” and evidently not be jealous of working class people who make more than i do??????

  59. Round 1 ..

    No one has ever told me what a “swell” guy I am.

    From two days ago.

    You’re wrong. If you met me in person, you would say, think and wonder “Why are you not married????”
    Heard it a billion times since 1988. From women, from men, from co-workers, from the few friends over the decades, from people in church, from people out of church.

    Which is it .. you are a swell guy or you are not? Me thinks that your self-deceit actually believes this stuff now. No woman wants you. So.What.No.One.Cares.Neither.Should.You. Move on and stop living a lie.

    Round 2 ..

    And……..a pump jockey is a man who pumps gasoline for a living. You know, at the gas station. At Chevron, Arco, and Shell…..or whatever chain they have in the south. The car drives up, he comes out and fills the tank.

    You know darn well what context we were using when I said “pump-jocks” .. 1) Only a few states mandate someone pump your fuel for you .. so 2) You know this isn’t a job anyone has or counts on to provide for a family .. it was done to be dismissive and degrading to the trades .. As the following will illustrate.

    {you}and evidently everyone knows “tons” of men who are married to this, and they all are pump-jockeys for a living

    {me} I think I’ve figured it out .. you hate that trade-school grads make more money than you do.

    You’re envy is huge. Unlike your income.

    Your elite-ism is showing too .. big four year grad makes a small income while mem in the trades are making bank. And with little if any debt.

    Your white collar job has failed you. The advice people gave you has failed you. You still believe their lies and play by their rules.

    So there is no mis-understanding .. those “pump-jocks” [sic] are making north of 150k/yr. With a solid pension and a generous 401k plan .. not to mention a much lower tax state. Who’s the pump-jock now? /S

    Probably won’t help your jealousy of those that followed a different path to success.

    Keep following someone else’s idea of success. And hating everyone else for not playing by the rules you do.

    Smart people change based on the reality they are faced with .. dumb folks expect everyone else to change for them.

    You are a liar and scam artist at this point in our conversation.

    Round 3 ..

    I’m a prick. Yeah, you would think that.

    You have misrepresented my points to you to make you feel better about your bad choices. Yes, a prick you are and will be known as.

  60. Honeycomb:

    Where is the word “swell guy” in that comment. Nowhere. Moving goal posts again…or is it “variables” and “what people really mean” (you high IQ guys really are a dishonest lot)

    No, I didn’t know “darn well” what you meant. I stated that “oh pump jockeys make 150 k a year” and you being a real prick said they do.

    Haven’t lied a bit. You guys are the ones “speaking two ways” and “changing the conversation into “variables” and “should have knowns”

  61. Look, I believe you both. From your “testimony” and desperate DEFENSE of this picture most men today are married to women like this, who look like this and act like this…..and according to your both (Derek and Honeycomb) pretty easy to do, they’re everywhere! All over the place. Actually very common. So common…..wait, is it 1961?

    I fully admit, aside from work, the occasional soul dance or ska show. I really don’t go out too much….or its for specific things…….architecture tour / walk. A record shop. Going to an automotive store for a part for my Vespa. The treat of a meal out…..and I go at times when most families are probably doing family things at home like sitting around a fire so grateful for what they have. I don’t know.

    I live in a different world, and not because its California…..but I just don’t see what you guys are seeing. Even when I was going to church.

  62. Look, I believe you both. From your “testimony” and desperate DEFENSE of this picture most men today are married to women like this, who look like this and act like this…..and according to your both (Derek and Honeycomb) pretty easy to do, they’re everywhere!

    I never said “most” .. I said ..

    4th .. That womminz above looks like a lot of guys from work(s) wives.

    Now, as for “pretty easy to do” .. that would be arguable. Did they do it .. yes .. I’ve never asked about how .. I don’t care to know .. I ain’t looking for a wife or writing a book. But, to me every wife looks HIGH-Maintenance.

  63. “trying to make me a fool”

    I’m not doing that, don’t be ridiculous. Anyway, I’m out of things to say about that dumb picture, so I’ll spare you additional commentary.

  64. “Most of the married women I know are regular women, not hot-ass hardbodies. [..] Most of the married people, men and women alike, could probably find more attractive sex partners if they were single, but most of them could not find a more attractive spouse, and they all seem to know this, and are fine with the tradeoff.”

    I’ll be straight with you. I don’t really know what you mean by “hot-ass hardbodies” (and I don’t really want to know). I’ve only had sex with one woman and she was my personal 10/10 when I had my sights on another woman. I don’t know what’s supposedly wrong with “regular women”, but I wouldn’t swap even if I could. It’s not a tradeoff.

  65. “…posit that nice women probably do exist, but they aren’t bothering to stand out among the skank-ho wimminz, and thus it is not our job to try and discern which is which. No one has ever bothered to dispute this, and I remain convinced that it’s the only sane way to see the world.”

    Huh, I’ve always thought that nice women exist, but are either already married or are too young to be available to those older gents who wish to be married to one. I’m pretty sure this has been a consistent theme since my first few posts in this post code. It’s for this reason that my earlier guest posts and comments pushed getting married as early as possible. There are not enough single nice women remaining to stand out.

    So, you ask yourself, who gets to marry those young available nice women? It is the lucky men who make up the 50%+ of first time marriages that don’t end in divorce. I don’t think there is any demographic in particular that lays claim to these marriages, no magical formula to acquire one. You can find such marriages in every group. They are just those couples who flipped a coin and won.

    “Even if that traditional woman is what she claims to be, why is she not out protesting against the family courts? Why is she not handing white feathers to the feminists? Her fans will pretend she’s doing this via her instagram feed, but to me (and I think to you too) that’s just so much female attention whoring, and it’s probably not motivated by a desire to make a positive change in the social fabric.”

    The nice women are raising families and too busy to be protesting or battling feminists. They are affecting the social fabric by building their families and keeping them intact. But more to the point, why would a nice woman do any of the things above? Call me sexist and old-fashioned, but I’d rather see groups of men doing that. Fighting public battles is better suited to those who are cold, tactical, principled, and logical, not those are emotional, nurturing, and empathetic. There is a reason men fight in wars while women stay at home. Women on the front lines like Lori Alexander are incredibly rare and I don’t expect very many nice women wives are like that.

  66. All I did was bring up a “contrarian” idea. Most were all calling the woman who made the comments about the picture jealous, and wishing she could be like her………..and I made my comment.

    Suddenly…….this type of womanhood and wife is very common. It’s all over the place. Every married guy has a wife like this? Didn’t you know that????? And even a working class guy has this kind of wife (my dad didn’t, he must have married a blue haired feminist, right?). And if he doesn’t? Well, he’s not living in reality.

    Then it became not the picture, but what it “represents” and of course I was petty for pointing this out, and the defense then went on defending this, calling me a prick, a liar, an itemized list of how common this actually is…..

    And now…..NOW…….it’s suddenly a shifting to “its just a dumb picture”

    Now do you get it. This is what I dealt with in church. In college. In high school. In stupid graduate school. My entire life when dealing with men. LOOKING for perhaps some advice. Attempting to learn. Trying to listen. Making a point and suddenly, the topic shifts, and I am made to look like “oh, you see….you just have to listen more, be teachable, learn from others……stop being jealous or having envy. Learn Game. Pray. Christianity is suffering. You don’t deserve anything. God answers prayer. You did an excellent job…..sadly, we hired my cousin and have to pay him, you understand…so your raise will be a 2.1 % raise, you understand, show that teamwork spirit. God doesn’t promise you a wife. God fulfills his promises. You just have to be patient. Volunteer. Get hobbies. Be confident.”

    Repeat 10,000X

    It f*cking goes on and on. The topic changes, the “variables” change, and this jibber-jab and philospohical terms are thrown in……..and still in church. In work. Out there where all these men are who don’t come to church, are incels, are self-absorbed, are lost, are single……..are not sure of what they are supposed to do and you are so surprised that they want anything to do with people like you, with god, with jesus, with women, a hope for the future.

    You all put this “we gotta help men” out there, and then you all slam the door on anything they have to say, change the rules and fucking talk down to them. If you think I m signaling you out Derek, no…….its aimed at all of them. The phony congregations, the phony man o sphere…..all of them………

    You all are about gladhanding and being superior to others….hence why this faith is dying in the USA and West and deserves to be thrown into the fire and forgotten. The ironic thing is, you all then will blame men like me for this as to why this happened.

    Don’t expect this vast swath of lost men, or men “who need jesus” to come save you or help you when that persecution you all seem to rejoice in comes.

  67. Good evening gentlemen:

    Please see inside text…

    All I did was bring up a “contrarian” idea. Most were all calling the woman who made the comments about the picture jealous, and wishing she could be like her………..and I made my comment.

    The woman in the photo is an instagram attention whore who trolls people by advertising traditional notions of marriage and homemaking. It’s quite a sad indictment of our society that she’s able to pull so many chains so effectively, simply by appearing as normal, but here we are.

    Suddenly…….this type of womanhood and wife is very common.

    What type of woman?

    Attention whores are not uncommon, and neither are married women who try to be competent wives and mothers. I think the intersection between those two sets is somewhat uncommon, and that’s why it’s so effective.

    The nice women are raising families and too busy to be protesting or battling feminists. They are affecting the social fabric by building their families and keeping them intact.

    Oh? This woman seems to have plenty of time getting all made up to model cake decorating, and putting the results on social media. I’m sure that’s a nice ego boost, and she gets a great laugh out of all the screeching and moaning in the comments section, but is it effective? Why isn’t she down at the divorce courts, heckling the wimminz who are in the process of making their children bastards?

    I might be wrong, but I think part of Jason’s trepidation might be based upon this unnatural juxtaposition.

  68. The woman in the photo is an instagram attention whore who trolls people by advertising traditional notions of marriage and homemaking.

    Apparently the trolling even worked here.

    Instagram isn’t reality. Most women use it as ego boost whether they dress up as a model wife & homemaker…or go to foreign lands wearing skimpy clothes so they can get 10,000 likes from simps.

  69. The trolling worked and everyday Earl, millions of catholics are right now “praying to mary” so lets not get too righteous about this.

    No shit instagram isn’t reality…….but don’t tell that to Derek and Honeycomb. They each know lots of women like this.

  70. The trolling worked and everyday Earl, millions of catholics are right now “praying to mary” so lets not get too righteous about this.

    Which denomination told you that lie?

    You can’t troll me that one because that’s never been the truth.

  71. Which denomination told you that lie?

    It’s not a lie. I spent years praying to Mary, even though it’s the worst sin (according to my tradition) one can commit.

    I did it knowingly. She’s a nice lady, and she was a good wife to her man and a good mother to her little boy. The Mormon god either accepted these prayers, or he didn’t. If he didn’t, then I figure he’s not worthy of my attention anyway.* Either way, I got something out of it.

    You should quit denying it. Instead, just ask whoever has a problem with it what the problem really is.

    *To the Mormons who may read this: Do you idiots really think Elohim is so petty as to send someone to outer darkness for that? Every day, sealings are dissolved with the blessing of those assholes in Salt Lake City, and this is what you’re worried about.

  72. I made my comment in jest……..Earl came on here after Boxer’s closing “good evening gentlemen” statement, and Earl commenting as if “he wasn’t trolled by her, unlike YOU guys”

    I just had to remind him that in the catholic faith, there is a woman called Mary, that millions of catholic are praying to right now. I don’t know if Mary is a troll per say….probably not….but the doctrines of that faith that have statues of her everywhere. Songs and hymns to her, lighting candles at her feet, and all the other trappings around her…if that isn’t worship? What is it? Reverence???? Just like the orthodox who read liturgical texts (where oh where did jesus tell the follower…..paint on wood, and read chants to them, on certain days, months and weeks……and if you don’t….you’re not following me”)

    The don’t call this icons or idoltry…..they call it reverence.

    Same thing to my eyes.

    Look, I could care less if Mary is worshiped or not. We all know the christian faith’s greatest king is MONEY! Lots of it!!!!

  73. Lastmod isn’t a virgin and has even had the snip! He does get dates and most definitely has sex on this first date if you follow his story on friends. Not sure if he had you fooled anyway…

    Please stop wasting your time entertaining this pathetic excuse for a man. I wasted three months talking to him. This man is a pathological liar with NPD.

    Pity him yes, but don’t let him waste your time.

  74. Lisa:

    I am allowing your comment because there isn’t any personally identifiable information attached. However, you haven’t made any argument at all, and this is your first (and final) warning.

    If you want to argue against any of Lastmod’s points, feel free to do so, but we expect valid arguments around here. Feminist-style shaming and meaningless ad hominem doesn’t reflect on anyone but you. If you want to make fun of one of the authors, you should try and make your flames entertaining and/or thought provoking. This message fails on that count also.

    Best,

    Boxer

Shout!

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.